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strung along?
  • Nat
    Posts: 90
    I know I havent been on here for a long time, but I was interested to see that a member had been banned from the site. A number of thoughts came to mind.

    First, I commend the Aneros team for providing this forum. For most products, there is no such thing as a hub of support for users. However, with taking that major step comes out of the box major responsibility. One of many reasons that I havent been around is because of the lack of consistency with products. I have been an Aneros user for a few years now, still yet to even experience 1/3 of what most users get. In an attempt to make my experiences better, I tried a number of things. As always, I was part of the forum and chats, but still received no satisfaction. I went ahead and spent a few hundred dollars on Aneros products, was later bullied by a good deal of users on this very forum, ignored by support when I had questions, and for what? My point being, when you as a company open the door for support and discussion, you are opening the door for good and bad user experiences.

    Being someone that has recently started a user based company of his own, I have to remain firm about the old saying "the customer is always right". For example, my situation was frustrating not only because of the ignorant responses of other users, but also the fact that after spending hundreds of dollars for the Aneros brand and getting close to nothing as advertised, I was given no way to return the product. Sure, there is the other famous saying "a sucker is born every five minutes", but I believe the Aneros staff needs to not adapt this saying. In fact, how can you advertise that a product has no limit to when it can or cannot start working, yet only offer a small window to return it? In my mind thats theft and in no ways shows that support and discussion that was trying to be achieved when creating this forum. In regards to my own personal struggles with the product, how can you charge a lot ofor a product, take people money alongside a false hope, and in the end claim that you offer a support system, but are not even willing to respond to customers beyond the fact that they cant reach a super o? The process becomes even more lifeless when you are more concerned with shelling out new product than you are interacting with customers and perfecting those already purchased. I was the fool, so thats where I drew the line.

    However, there is a different kind of fool. That is where Helixer comes in. Here was a guy, just like everyone else, who may or may not have been happy with the Aneros product. Sure, he might have had a very bitter opinion on matters. To be honest, I can even remember him taking a few digs at me. However, when you open the door to discussion, you get many different personalities from many different cultures. This leads us to ask two questions. For one, was Helixer right? I might think no. You might think no. But that doesnt mean any of us have that authority to label someone elses opinion. From my experiences with forums, members dont respond well to lifeless warnings from staff that are only involved when giving a warning or trying to make a sale. And more importantly, they usually dont respond well to those members who act like they are staff, but really have no authority aside from the fact that they have been members for years. If we are going to ban members for personal opinions, then members should be banned for having an attitude that their opinions are worth more than users that might be new to the product.

    The second questions would be, aside from the already disastrous marketing tactics of the company, do you not worry about losing customers because of your actions? I cant speak for Helixer, but if I was banned from a product forum for having an unpopular opinion, chances are I am no longer going to buy or promote that company product. Sure, Helixer could have very well been a bad guy that wanted to stir up trouble. However, he could have also been an enthusiastic product user that was having some issues with the product (or personal issues) that could have been solved by support actually taking stock in its users. Its a very commendable thing to want to take product innovations a step further and interact, but the truth is, you cant half ass it.

    You have lost Helixer. And you have basically lost me unless there is a quick and easy why I can pick up on sensations that are advertised. How many others have been lost? More importantly, how many others are you willing to loose? Or does that no longer matter, just as long as people are spending a good 100 bucks a pop for a product that is risky if it will work?

    I say all this not to start trouble, but instead to be critical of a dragged out process people have been strung along with for a long time.
  • PareidoliaPareidolia
    Posts: 74
    Hey there!

    I just got out of bed, so I won't attempt to address your whole post (sorry :)). All I want to say is: It fook me 4 years! I see you are from 2008, so you are close... but have you tried Hypnaerosession? It's perfect, it even works for a gay man like me.

    The best thing I can think of is an analogy with cars. You can't blame the manufacturer of a car when someone drives it and crashes it without a driver's license. The thing about Aneros is that you cannot be trained... there can only be ventured on (buzzword alert!) your journey. Though the best thing like driver's ED would the the Hypnaerosession. If you haven't tried it, I suggest you do.

    Cheers...
  • VoyagerVoyager
    Posts: 200
    I am a September 2008 member as well.
    My road has been rough and I too have spent money.
    You cannot blame the product / product's.
    It is how you are made(wired) that is the problem.

    I have had 1 dry O sitting with an MGX and an interesting hour or so with a Peredise.
    I have Helix, MGX, Progasm Ice and Peridise advanced.
    The most consistant of these is the Peredise up to now.
    My point being is that they are all different in what spot they hit.
    I might end up having the complete range before I find the one that is right for me.

    I read with envy the post's by a new user that has a Super O straight out of the box or in their first few sessions.

    Sure I get frustrated, stop for a while, start again.
    It is the luck of the draw.

    I read posts about the state of bliss, euphoria, calm sea orgasm. floating, every world leader should have one,
    the key's to world peace, life changing experience.
    This brings me to Helixer.
    Why did he turn so negative and extreme.
    Did he ever Super O or was this another cannabis delusion ?

    It is a diverse Forum.
    We all have different ideas and opinions.
    There will be clashes of opinion.

    The owners of the Forum show remarkable restraint and have done so for a period of years.
    If you have a beef with one of their products you are free to air your opinion, you will not get banned for it.
    Anybody who gets banned on here has only themselves to blame.

    As for me I will continue on my rough road as to abandon my journey would make a mockery of my hopes and aspirations.
    To those of you with doubts and fears, stick with it.
  • The_BishopThe_Bishop
    Posts: 810
    I get the feeling from reading your post that you think you were duped into buying these products.
  • PommiePommie
    Posts: 709
    Nat

    From my readings of Helixer’s posts, he was actually not dissatisfied with Aneros products. In fact he posted several times that he achieved Super-Os while using his favourite model, which was the 18mm Peridise (the larger of the Advanced set). He did admit however, that he was normally under the influence of marijuana although he stated that he only partook of the weed once every couple of months.

    I suspect he enjoyed weed much more often than that, as it seemed to me that many of his posts were composed while under its influence.

    I don’t aim to speak for Aneros support here, but it is my firm belief that the reason for Helixer’s banning was his intemperate use of language. Nearly all of the threads that he authored were way off topic and in no way helped viewers of the forum to progress along the path to rewiring.

    I believe the primary purpose of this forum is to assist new users of Aneros products to achieve the rewiring process by allowing more experienced users to provide suggestions, which would assist in that process. It has long been my fear and perhaps that of the support team, that much of Helixer’s contribution to this forum was actually counterproductive.

    If you go back through his history, I doubt that you could fail to agree. In his defence he submitted that his more outrageous statements had been made in jest. The problem with this is that we have none of us actually met the guy so we have no way of judging his body language, That being the case we have to take his words at face value.

    I think it is clear that Helixer was actually doing damage to this forum and to the Aneros brand. With reluctance, I must agree with the decision of support to ban him.

    Nat, I’m sorry, none of the above does anything to solve your problem. I’m sure you will eventually find that there is nothing wrong with the design or quality of the Aneros devices. There are clearly tens of thousands of men all round the world who have discovered the wonders of these little pieces of plastic and I am sure you will eventually discover them for yourself.

    I discovered Aneros massagers just short of two years ago. Whilst I am sure that I have yet to experience a Super-O, I have had some great times with them and have certainly enjoyed many anal orgasms. If I can discover this area of activity at the age of seventy, I’m pretty sure anyone can! I must also say that some models work better for me than others. For example, I have yet to discover the magic that so many users report that the Progasm does for them!

    May I suggest that you select just one model from your toy box and use it exclusively until such time that you actually achieve some success with it. This way your body will learn how to respond to that model. Only when the responses occur consistently with that model would it then be time to experiment with another. I am sure my own progress was slowed by continually trying different models in an attempt to find the magic one!

    I would also urge you to try to strip away all the negative feelings you have developed from your previous experiences, go back to the basics and follow the instructions in the “Getting Started” section of the Aneros wiki and treat it is if you are starting again from scratch. Just remember that there are many thousands of men out there who have genuinely found that these devices do work.

    Good Luck!

    Pommie
  • Carolinaguy
    Posts: 67
    There is a great deal of frustration when you read all the marvelous sessions so many people have and you have none. It took me a few years to get there myself. I also went through a period where I thought that this is all B.S.
    Success with prostate massage is an individual journey. Your rate and depth of success depends on your mind and your body. The forum offers a great deal of information, encouragement and yes frustration when you read of all the great sensations others have had.
    Once it happens to you and you reach that level and then begin to go beyond further and further, you will be amazed.
    Before I had success I would look at the Aneros after a session and think man what a ripoff. Now I look at them and think how can this little piece of plastic (& now stainless steel) do all that to me. Now I look at it as the ultimate bargain.
    I encourage you to keep at it and I hope you will get there. I am very glad I did not give up. Once you have success and become rewired, you will be a changed person.
  • Love_isLove_is
    Posts: 1,672
    Hello Nat, :)

    I've been at this for just past 4.5 years now. And still no super-O. For some men this can take time. So what keeps me going? Well after the first year and a half of nothing, I finally started getting some pleasurable sensations. And it has grown step by step, little by little over the years. Pommie has given some good advice. And I'd even add that for some men, ejaculation abstinence can help tremendously. It did for me, and I still practice it, in addition to Aneros sessions as often as daily when possible. Only because it's the only way I can keep my arousal and pleasurable sensation to keep occurring. These toys are not scams or failures. Like yourself, at one point I thought that to in the back of my head. But I've since let that go once I started getting some pleasurable sensations. Keep practicing. You'll will get something out your Aneros toys. They are not wasted money and effort.

    As far as Helixer goes... The Aneros support people spent of a lot of time and effort private messaging with him many times to try to get him to understand what people found so offensive about his posts, and how to change them to be more acceptable to the users here. They went above and beyond simple moderator warnings in the forum. I don't believe this was a light hearted decision on their part. I support their decision to ban him and believe the forums here will be a better place because of it.

    Love_is
  • ten_s_nutten_s_nut
    Posts: 816
    Hello, Nat.

    You said, among other things, "...I was part of the forum and chats, but still received no satisfaction. I went ahead and spent a few hundred dollars on Aneros products, was later bullied by a good deal of users on this very forum,..."

    The responses to your satisfaction issue by others, above, are in line with my opinion.

    As for your experience of being bullied by forum members, I think the tone of this place must have changed since you were last here. Considering the 6 months I've participated in this forum, with the sole exception of Helixer, I haven't seen any bullies or even much rudeness. This forum is one of the most politely behaved ones I've ever encountered, and I've been around many on the Internet since 1995.

    I hope you have a better experience with this forum and with Aneros products in the near future.

    Best Regards,

    Dave
  • Badger
    Posts: 647
    Nat;

    The Aneros devices are simple pieces of plastic that are only as useful as the mind and imagination of the user. It's very much like giving a spool to a kid: some will see it as a chunk of wood, a piece of junk; to others, with a sharpened dowel glued into the hole, it's a top; split it in two, and glue a dowel between the halves with a string with a loop on one end, and it's a yo-yo; slip a dowel in the center and support both ends, and it's a pulley, and the list goes on, only limited by the creativeness of the mind. If you think it's just a blankety-blank piece of f-in plastic, well to you, that's all that it can be.

    The hardest part of this device, is to relax, erase all expectations, open the mind and focus on the slightest sensations that it produces, not letting the mind wander. For some, it's quite easy to accomplish, and they have the most wonderful sensations. For most, they have a fairly steep and long learning curve, taking many months of little sensations before experiencing each level of success. Then there are those, like me, who have been working for years without much success, but every now and then experiencing a spectacular session, then nothing for months at a time, not knowing what happened nor how to repeat it.

    In some respects, it's kind of like having faith: you just keep following without seeing much, if any signs, hoping/confident that in the end, you will be successful.

    I hope this is helpful.
  • tokertoker
    Posts: 128
    i feel your pain i would be pissed if i had not had any results i would be satisfied with just the health benefits personaly but at the end of the day its just a sex toy some people build it up too much this can hinder progress hypnoaerosession is good but do you really want to spend more cash
  • Nat
    Posts: 90
    First I want to say that I did not start this thread. This post was in response to the banning of a member. I responded only to get a PM from support saying that they meant to close the thread, but never did. So instead they moved my post to another thread (I guess..) without even telling me.

    Bishop, you are right, I do feel like a sucker for spending all that money. You want to know the reason why? It was because I actually believed in the product and what everyone else was saying. So really, there was no negative approach to the product or sessions. And while things understandably take time, there has to be a point where you get realistic and a line is drawn. Sure, at first it might not be the products fault, but after years of on and off use, questions need to be answered. Yet I find it so funny that when those questions are directly asked to the company making the product, they run away with their tail between their legs, flapping money in their hands, laughing. In all seriousness, if it takes anywhere between 4 years to get the product to work, either it isnt perfected yet, or they need to clearly tell customers this is the case before they spend the money. It would have atleast saved me a lot of time, frustration, and money.

    To be completely blunt, its always the same old song and dance. No one wants to address the facts, they just want to use safe answers. But the honest truth is, what makes anyone here an Aneros expert? It was stated that tens of thousands of men have experienced the great wonders of this device (which I have no doubt is true), but how do you know that there are not as well tens of thousands who have had no success? Every time someone has an issue with their model, everyone assumes that they need to go back and read the basics. Hell, if you had a 5 year user, they would be told to do the same. When in fact, its an insult to their intelligence, because they have actually been using the product for 5 years. In turn, whether it be Aneros fanboys or support, everyone wants to blame the lack of success on the user. When in fact, what I am trying to say is that the user is the customer and the customer is always right. To have no warning on how much the product may or may not work, Aneros is not taking responsibility for their product. Its as if I was to go to Best Buy and buy a DVD, get it home, and it doesnt work. Then after my frustration, go to return it to the store only to have the cashiers tell me that I cannot return the product because they dont believe me since it works in the store DVD player. In the end, having it blamed on my DVD player. Any store manager would have put the cashier in their place and gave the customer a refund.

    People can assume it is something wrong with me, which it very much can be. However, that is a very bold assumption. How do you know for a fact that it is me and not the product? And yes people.. I am asking for cold hard facts. The truth is, no one can say.

    Again.. I would be interested in hearing from the Aneros team about this. I would like an answer that isnt like a press release or hype of the product. While all you guys try to be as helpful as you can, you all wouldnt be here if you were completely dissatisfied with the product. So in reality, you do not speak for all Aneros users.
  • darwindarwin
    Posts: 1,195
    Nat-

    I agree with you in part. It seems to me there are a few different issues here:

    1) the marketing of the device does not indicate that there is a range of success with it, and that success might take a long time.

    2) that the forum is probably biased towards men who have had success

    3) that you spent a lot of money buying more than one device, based on your participation in the forum

    4) helixer

    With respect to (1), I agree with you that the company should make this clear. The aneros is like a surfboard. Everybody knows that you can't expect to be a good or even great surfer unless you have a lucky combination of time to spend on it and physical talent. But with the aneros that is less obvious. The really confounding thing is that it is not understood why some guys get it and some struggle. I have been trying to crack that nut for seven years now.

    That said, they do offer a 30 day guarantee. While it is true that 30 days is not often enough to get going hands-free, still it is reasonable. I don't know what the business considerations are for extending it to, say, 60 days, which would be better. Furthermore while many users don't get hands-free responsiveness, my sense is that if the device is used in conjunction with traditional sex it will provide at least some enhancement for almost everybody. So I don't think it is a complete dud for many people. With a surfboard, this is like being able to lie on it and paddle.

    So I think it would be *better* for the company to make this clear, but I don't think it is malfeasance.

    Which leads me to (2). One way the company is compensating for lack of such information is by hosting this forum. It is a double edged sword. The forum is biased towards enthusiasts because those are the kind of people who would bother to come here. But on the other hand, there are almost always some threads going that indicate difficulty learning how to use it, or how long it has taken. What I find interesting, actually, is that over the last couple of years the proportion of such threads has gone down. I don't know why that is, though some other long-time participants attribute it to the wiki and rumel's CD. Since I was one of the authors of the wiki I'd be glad to think this is true, but I don't know. Anyway, there is clear integrity on the part of the company in having a forum in which problems with their product are discussed (like in this thread). In sum, while the forum is self-selected towards guys who have had success, there is still plenty of discussion of failure, and such failure is acknowledged as a real problem and elicits much genuine effort at helping. The beach is full of guys who are trying to help newbies surf, and the water is full of both good and great surfers, and those stuck just paddling.

    Which leads me to (3). Here is the part i disagree with you about. Nobody here bullied you. They have no leverage over you and no ability to force you to participate in this forum. Furthermore, I am sure I have read, however long ago, the threads you are on and I have never noticed anybody forcefully pushing a product on a forum member. Some guys might suggest they like this model or that, and say they had success when they moved to this model or that. But often that is counter-balanced by those who say that it is more about skill then the model itself.

    If you spent a lot of money on additional models when the first ones didn't work, then you were imprudent. I understand that you might have acted out of desperation to experience what is commonly reported here. But, you have to be honest with yourself that it was your responsibility not anybody else's

    Which leads me to (4). Helixer was banned here because he become incoherent and very ugly. You are evidencing some anger, and I am sorry and I feel your pain. But there is really no relationship between you and Helixer. I do think you should chill your message a little, but that is just personal advice.

    Finally I wish I could help you get success with the aneros. It is a great frustration to me that some guys just don't get off the ground and that there no clear way to help them.

    I do appreciate you coming back to the forum to report that you have had no luck. That provides the needed counter-balance to all the enthusiasm.

    Darwin
  • Billy11
    Posts: 280
    Haven't checked into this forum for awhile and this happened to be the first post I clicked on.
    I'm sure I've said this before but here goes again.
    It's all in your head! The energy to have these mind blowing orgasms is already in you. Learning how to free this energy is the key. For some the aneros helps release this and others not so much. I feel the reason why some have troubles experiencing "success" lies much deeper than we think. I haven't used the aneros for quite some time now. I actually pretty much have fully stopped doing things related to MMO's. It's like I just don't care anymore. I may just be in a weird part of my life. I know the energy is within me but haven't had much desire to release it in the MMO manner. Plus when I do try it doesn't come easily like it did awhile back and I attribute that to my own mental blocks and crap that's gotten in the way.
    That's my problem.... Not the aneros. The aneros works. But only when I'm in the right mind to let it work. Nothing wrong with the product. The problem lies within the user. And I think this pisses the shit out of people that while others are experiencing great things they are not.

    When I first found out about the aneros by stumbling across MMO's I thought it was all BS. The whole men being able to have MMO's like in the manner of women. Holy shit was I wrong. Buying a product that claims to give you MMO's and super O's even if there was no 30 day money back guarantee seems like a pretty damn easy gamble to me. Though If the first device I bought hadn't worked I doubt I would keep buying them. And even after I experienced great success I would put the aneros away for months or year at a time before getting the desire to want to experience MMO's. I just have to be in the right state of mind.

    Anyways I can feel for those who haven't had any success at all and feeling like they wasted there money. But at least you know that the possibility is there. It's just up to you to figure the how out. I suggest working with meditation and other areas of your life and come back to MMO's at another time. This advice is for anybody who is frustrated with not being able to achieve MMO's aor super O's or what not.
  • PolecatPolecat
    Posts: 56
    Nat,

    You received a PM from the Aneros folks informing you that they had closed the other thread and had moved your comments to a new thread, then they were telling you what they had done, right? Perhaps what you were trying to say is that they didn't ask your permission? Fact is, they don't have to. As you and every other member here knows they have the absolute right to edit, delete and amend content as they see fit. We all give them that right when we first sign on. Another fact is that they rarely exercise that right. It seems to me in this case that this was done for your benefit as had they closed the other thread with your comments in there no one would have been able to respond to what you posted. (I suspect that you would have had something to say had that occurred).

    With respect to the "customer is always right", this is a catchy slogan that was created back in 1910 to "sucker " as you say more buyers, by making them feel "empowered". Some people credit Marshall Fields for it others say it was Harry Selfridge. I suspect that it really began with itinerant peddlers working door-to-door making their way across the old south west. As one who has owned my own business for 30 years I can tell you that the customer is often TERRIBLY wrong. In an absolute sense, yes, a merchant's very existence relies upon having customers, but this does not mean that the customer makes all the rules. For example, every now and then I have had customers demand to purchase something from me at under my cost! Is the customer " right" then too? If you are in business long enough you'll discover, there are all sorts of customers out there and there are some that you simply cannot do business with. No matter what you do there will always be some buyers who have issues.

    It's a credit to the Aneros company that they have allowed you to air your dissatisfaction in the past and facilitated it this time by making sure that your comments weren't lost inside of a closed thread.


    Paul
  • artformartform
    Posts: 1,473
    Hi again Billy11!! And hi again Nat!!

    IMHO, you've said it so well Billy11!! :D :D

    [QUOTE=Billy11;97769]
    ...It's all in your head! The energy to have these mind blowing orgasms is already in you. Learning how to free this energy is the key. For some the aneros helps release this and others not so much. I feel the reason why some have troubles experiencing "success" lies much deeper than we think. I haven't used the aneros for quite some time now. I actually pretty much have fully stopped doing things related to MMO's. It's like I just don't care anymore. I may just be in a weird part of my life. I know the energy is within me but haven't had much desire to release it in the MMO manner. Plus when I do try it doesn't come easily like it did awhile back and I attribute that to my own mental blocks and crap that's gotten in the way.
    That's my problem.... Not the aneros. The aneros works. But only when I'm in the right mind to let it work. Nothing wrong with the product. The problem lies within the user. And I think this pisses the shit out of people that while others are experiencing great things they are not.

    When I first found out about the aneros by stumbling across MMO's I thought it was all BS. The whole men being able to have MMO's like in the manner of women. Holy shit was I wrong. Buying a product that claims to give you MMO's and super O's even if there was no 30 day money back guarantee seems like a pretty damn easy gamble to me. Though If the first device I bought hadn't worked I doubt I would keep buying them. And even after I experienced great success I would put the aneros away for months or year at a time before getting the desire to want to experience MMO's. I just have to be in the right state of mind.

    Anyways I can feel for those who haven't had any success at all and feeling like they wasted there money. But at least you know that the possibility is there. It's just up to you to figure the how out. I suggest working with meditation and other areas of your life and come back to MMO's at another time. This advice is for anybody who is frustrated with not being able to achieve MMO's aor super O's or what not.

    I find even leaving a particular model alone for months, even a couple of years as I did with my MGX, and their effects are even better when I come back to them.

    Plus, there are many available complementary practices. Before Aneros I/we (mrs. a joined in) experimented with Taoist sexual kung fu. I was able to open my energies and got as far as achieving the MicroCosmic Orbit circulation of these energies through my body. Then left it behind for many years.

    When my aneros journey was seeming slow to get going after some weeks :), I saw that some others here were also practising KSMO. I took a look. Felt that method was worth a shot. Bought. Tried it. Soon p-waves started for me using KSMO, quickly they became very powerful!! and my Aneros practice then took off too.

    And suddenly I was also feeling those old energies again more powerfully and MCOing easily. IMHO, what you learn along these lines never really leaves you, your body/mind. You may just need a complementary trigger.

    We are all unique. Put away the negative feelings. Explore. Adopt any other technique your intuition deeply feels may help you fully open up, and try it. Or if you cannot believe that this is in you, relax and leave it in your past...

    I wish you well in your business Nat and however you choose to follow your MMO interest. All the best!

    artform
  • impimp
    Posts: 72
    [QUOTE=Nat;97765]First I want to say that I did not start this thread. This post was in response to the banning of a member. I responded only to get a PM from support saying that they meant to close the thread, but never did. So instead they moved my post to another thread (I guess..) without even telling me.So now you're complaining they allowed your complaining to continue! How odd is that?
  • rookrook
    Posts: 1,603
    Dear Nat,

    Welcome back to the forum.

    As with Darwin, I'm rather puzzled about how your situation relates to that of being banned from the forum.

    While most of the product comments in the forum are constructive in nature, there have been a few dozen men who have been bummed out (no pun intended) by the product and none of them, during my two years here, have been banned. Taking shots at a competitor's product however is frowned upon as is strong criticism of United States patent law and intellectual property rights. Some posts that ran counter to those principles have resulted in locked threads and some posts have been removed.

    I liken your experience with Aneros toys somewhat like my five decades of experience with Golf clubs. The manufacturer provides little in the way of a money-back guarantee and never a guarantee of successful elevation to a slot on the PGA tour. I've found though that money and time spent for coached sessions at the local driving range and for an occasional pro-clinic on one's short-game has paid far greater dividends in my staying in-bounds, getting out of bunkers and reading greens. (I still buy more lunches and rounds of drinks than I receive though. I do enjoy the experience, the outdoors and the spiritual uplift I receive.)

    I feel that a most important factor in my small successes in golf and my rewards from 'Aneros-sport' has been NO BLAME!

    Blame serves to degrade one's spirit and emphasizes the negatives in any relationship. Instead, a positive spirit and desire for learning tends to cherish the benefits of a relationship, whether it be material or personal. When there are no rewards, then it's time to quit and move on to something that enhances one's spirit.

    I'd offer the sage advice of ArcticWolves.

    -- "-~~To be upset over what you DON'T have is to waste what you DO have.~~-"

    Blessings to you Nat.
  • ten_s_nutten_s_nut
    Posts: 816
    Darwin;

    (Sorry, Nat, I don't mean to hijack "your" thread even if you didn't intentionally start it :) )

    I have to say that your response, above, is one of the most cogent, well organized and responsive posts I've ever read on any forum. The only point I'll reinforce is about Aneros marketing's lack of clarity on the range of user success with the products. This forum clearly depicts that range every day, but many buyers never come here to read it. A paragraph about this issue on the packaging would go a long way towards reducing complaints like Nat's. To be fair, it may be true that total lack of success or utility in any manner are very rare and that making a big deal about success rate would unnecessarily impact Aneros sales. Only Aneros can balance those factors.

    Best Regards,

    Dave
  • Nat
    Posts: 90
    Darwin, I understand that like most products there is a 30 day refund. However, lets be honest here, of all the Aneros users that you know, what percent actually achieve success within 30 days? I am not talking about super o success here.. just consistent sensations. Being realistic, it might be a decent number, but when you look at the overall picture of all Aneros buyers, I bet it is small. So dont you think that maybe there is a bit of a disconnect between the Aneros team and their customers? The customer is supposed to be aware that they have a 30 day refund, yet if they view the forum, wiki, or even talk to support, they will be told that it could take years to see any progress. Therefore, where is the line drawn between the product not working for the customer and the customer not using the product correctly?

    For a minute lets go through the motions of a user. First they hear about the product and buy the model of their choice. For a lack of an example, maybe assume that they read the forum and noticed that the Helix is the central model. They buy it and have no success. In time they return to the forum to see what their mistakes may be, where they are directed to the wiki and various other informative items. They correct their flaws, but still come up empty. A few months later they are told to buy the CD that Rumel made, because a lot of members have had success using it. They do so, but receive nothing consistent. After plugging away some more, they return to the forum for more advice. At this point the 30 day refund is no longer in effect, but either way users are pushing them along by saying it will work, but give it time. The next thing the unsuccessful user knows, they are being told that some models work better for some people than others and that the Helix may not be the right model for them. This circle then continues based on each model, meaning how many hundreds of dollars are spent? Yet the customer is wrong because they were so much as unblindly loyal to the product? Maybe it is because I do business cleanly, but I as a business owner would never attribute loyalty from a customer as a weakness.

    This is all not said to stir up the pot, but I feel that if the Aneros team is going to be brave enough to provide this forum, they need to be able to address individual instances of failure just as much as instances of success. From e mails that I have personally sent, threads, etc, no effort has ever been made. This could be bad timing, but at this point I have to assume I am not the only one. However, because I have believed in the product for years (partly due to the support of the forum members), I peak my head in every once in awhile to talk about issues. In a day of age where most people are frustrated and busy, most users that are having issues and never return to the forum can very well be people that were left with nothing. It seems to me that the Aneros team is more concerned with creating more products for the use of those users that have "got it", but leave no extra time to address issues those of us left in the dust are experiencing. If this will continue to be the Aneros way, they should atleast lower the price of models or let those users without success beta test new products before donating more money to the cause.

    When I say bullied I dont mean traditionally. I mean it just as some of the "in your head" comments of this thread. Users (just like support) lead other users to believe that the product is never wrong and the user always is. Again, who are you supposed to trust as a consumer, when not even the people that make the product can answer the most basic questions about its use? With even an attitude like imp has, where an issue with a product is considered "complaining" rather than expressing concerns, I dont think that is a great reflection you want put on a business.

    Rook, my problem with the golf example is the same problem I have with the surfing example. Both sports are mainstream practices. You could go up to anyone and ask them if they think they should return a board or set of clubs after 30 days and they will tell you it is not that easy. However, with something like Aneros, your answer will vary depending on the user, because most people in the world dont even know this type of product exists, let alone being able to measure how long it may or may not take to gain ground. This is why most products have beta stages if the concepts are new. From my small knowledge of Aneros beta testers, it is the same group of people time and time again, who just happen to be users with a lot of previous success. If you want to accurately measure what you are doing right and wrong, wouldnt it be more worth it to listen to and work with those having less success?

    Dave made a great point. Only Aneros can balance these factors, which is why I was hoping they would directly participate in this discussion. You all are great for taking out the time to respond, but I think support could add a clearer perspective to this conversation. Because even if a product is 100% successful, conversations like this should be had when it comes to further development of products.
  • impimp
    Posts: 72
    When I click the 100% Money-Back Guarantee button on the home page Prostate Massage, Sex Toys for Men, Male G-Spot, Prostate Stimulators Stimulation, Anal Toys it says 90 days for the guarantee. Am I reading it wrong or are you wrong? I ain't complaining I'm just expressing my concern for accuracy.
  • Badger
    Posts: 647
    So, Let me understand this: you're saying that it's the company's fault that the purchaser of a hammer keeps hitting his thumb instead of the nail?

    As a child, I received a pocket knife. Unfortunately, I lacked the skill and coordination to properly wield it, and thus cut myself nearly every time I opened the knife. Should my parents have sued the knife manufacturer for making a faulty product? Of course not. With time, and practice, I managed to first not cry after cutting myself, then quit cutting myself altogether.

    The Aneros is no different. Like a hammer, there are no moving parts except for the muscles that wield it, and its usefulness is limited to the skill and physical abilities of the operator. Any of these models should get you where you want to go, but some will get some people there faster and easier - no one is quite sure why. The biggest impediment of optimum fit is buying over the internet; there's no one who can probe your butt and determine with any confidence that any one particular model will work the best for you first, the field is still new and wide open with so many variables. It's like buying your wife/girlfriend a diaphragm over the internet: you have no skill in measuring what size she needs, and you have very little knowledge of what size will work; they will not accept the product back if it's the wrong one, due to it coming in contact with bodily fluids, possible contamination with contagions. Once it touches body fluids, it's yours, buddy, no one wants it back.

    I have managed to have hit some milestones that many here describe in detail; I've lost the ability to reach those goals because of a number of factors, mostly mental barriers, and some, neurological due to injury to sciatic nerves. My intent is not to slap you into silence and submission, but relate it with other, simpler things that are easier to master than the subtle, elusive Aneros. It's akin to the difference between learning pig Latin and Chinese; one you pick up in minutes, the other will take you a lifetime to master.
  • MarkM
    Posts: 33
    [QUOTE=Nat;97835]Darwin, I understand that like most products there is a 30 day refund. However, lets be honest here, of all the Aneros users that you know, what percent actually achieve success within 30 days? I am not talking about super o success here.. just consistent sensations. Being realistic, it might be a decent number, ......

    Nat,

    Let's be accurate here, it is NOT a 30 day refund policy as you have stated, but a 90 day refund policy! (see below). In addition to that it is the first time I have ever seen anyone offer any kind of a refund or product performance guarantee for a sex device. Seriously, it's unheard of in this industry and it is generous.

    Our Guarantee


    MGX and SGX - 100% Money-Back Guarantee

    We are pleased to offer a 90-day 100% Money-Back Guarantee on our two original massagers - the Aneros MGX and Aneros SGX. Great results with our products do take patience and practice, so we ask that you give your body a chance to get familiar with the Aneros before claiming your refund. You won't regret it!

    This offer is only valid for massagers purchased through Aneros.com. Email us at [EMAIL="support@aneros.com"]support@aneros.com[/EMAIL] or check out the forum for hints on how to achieve these mind-blowing orgasms that so many of our customers have experienced!

    To claim your refund, first email us to obtain a return invoice form. Second, simply clip off both handles of the Aneros. Then fill out our return invoice form which we will e-mail you. Mail the Aneros handle and the return invoice form along with your original invoice, back to the company within 90 days of the purchase date. You must follow these directions precisely to obtain a refund.


    Helix, Maximus, and Eupho - Partial Refund Policy

    Our Next-Gen prostate massagers come with a 90-day partial refund policy - $48.00 for each device.


    Our Policy Regarding The Progasm® and Special Sets

    We recommend the Progasm® only for the advanced Aneros user or for men who are experienced with anal play/intercourse. The Progasm is significantly larger than the Maximus, which was the largest model before the release of the Progasm. The customer should be informed before making this purchase and therefore we do not offer any refund policy on the Progasm

    Our guarantee covers only individual massagers and does not apply to massagers sold as part of our currently offered Special Sets.



    With respect to achieving results in 90 days (the true time period involved in the guarantee), judging from the results in How Long Before Your First Super O poll, 54% of those that responded indicated that they achieved a Super-O within 90 days! One might assume that those who reported taking longer were experiencing some of the "consistent sensations" that you referred to also, although not full fledged Super-O's. The inference here is that a large majority of men have been experiencing results from the Aneros. That said, I suspect that it makes little difference to you if 70% or even 99.9% of the men out there are successful with the product if you are not one of them. This is totally understandable.

    On the company's tester program, perhaps you have more information on this than I do. But it occurs to me that the Aneros is a product whose performance is largely determined by the individual using it. One user likened it to a training device for developing a response in your body (a "Tantric Training Wheel") . Like any training process there is a learning curve with this device, and this factor is different for everyone. Assuming that the company used people who had no experience with the Super-O (as you have suggested), how would they know if these individuals were quick or slow learners? If they were slow learners it is possible that they could have a highly effective new model (for quick and intermediate learners) and never know it! It seems to me that using individuals who have Super-O experience would be about establishing a control group as is commonly used in scientific experiments. The way that I see it, HIH has been creating products that people have been raving about for over 9 years. Whatever their process is for testing them is spot on in my book.

    In regards to the Aneros Team addressing successes and failures of users in the forum, from what I've seen they do neither. This is a user supported forum where all of the content is generated by the user community. If you want to engage them in a dialogue I would suggest that you contact them directly.

    MarkM
  • darwindarwin
    Posts: 1,195
    sorry, my bad, not Nat's, about the "30 day guarantee." he didn't say that first on this thread, i did, based on my (incorrect) recollection.

    90 day seems extremely generous, unheard of actually.

    darwin
  • Nat
    Posts: 90
    Mark, that is 54% of what exactly? I think we have already established that most users of these items are not as aware that forums do exist for products, let alone those highly dissatisfied with using these products being active on them. You are looking at a percentage of users that have had a super o after 90 days, within a pool of users that most have had some kind of success. As I said in previous posts, I am taking the super o out of the equation here, seeing as though it is one of the top milestones of Aneros use.

    I understand your point in regards to testers. However, I think there are two factors involved. First if you want the most accurate of results on your product, you are going to want a combination of experienced and inexperienced users. After all, these are the people that are going to be using the products. Sure, we can assume that ever user knows the Eupho is not the right model to start with. But the truth is, are people outside of the forum going to know and express that? I started off with the Helix because I was fortunate enough to have read the forums first. But in all honesty, most people I have talked to that work at sex shops (where I bought my models and where almsot all Aneros products are sold) know nothing about Aneros. So here is the thing... Whether the Aneros team wants to believe it or not, a good amount of people still buy items in stores. So not only are we supposed to assume the product is great, but now that we have a 90 day warrenty that no one is sure about (since results do vary), but Im shit out of luck if I dont read the fine print on the website before buying, which states that I have no 90 day warranty since I bought in a store. To me atleast that is a major disconnect from the company to the product and back to the customer.

    Which of course leads me to the second factor, which I understand if no one can grasp. As a consumer, if I express loyalty to a product line or company, it is because I want to see it succeed and I want to support those involved. Where as in big business, most companies could care less about the consumer, just as long as they are spending money on the product. Because the company set up these forums, set up chats, and made that Aneros Me thing, I would assume that they care about the success of those that use their products. Yet I find it odd that they care enough to keep creating new models for experienced users, as well as allowing them to test them (meaning in theory, some experienced users dont have to shell out $80 for new models), yet they show no compassion for those users having a lack of success, yet still supporting the cause and still wanting the product to work for them. Again, maybe it is just me, but I dont see that as a good attitude towards customers.

    Its about positive interactions with your customers. For example, I bought a new microphone for my computer. I was having trouble getting it to work. When I called Guitar Center (where I bought the mic), they told me that I now have to buy some expensive filter and a pricey recording program. I hung up the phone and directly called the company that made the mic. The guy on the phone sat there for an hour with me going through computer and mic settings, until finally the product worked. He then told me how he had similar problems and knows a lot of people that wasted a lot of money on software just to get it to work, when it was unneeded. So in other words, this company has some compassion for users of their products. They provided for me a positive interaction, where as Guitar Center wanting nothing more than you to buy more product from them. How is this different with Aneros? I know it isnt mainstream like a microphone is, but I could have very well went through the same motions. I could have easily went on music and tech forums, where a lot of people would have still suggested that I buy the pricey add ons, only because thats where they gained their success (rather than it being needed). When contacting the manufacturer, they could have very well have never returned my call or lead me to buy more of their products to get it to work. I dont see that sympathy with Aneros. They set up these really nice forums and such, which I commend them for, but they dont follow through.

    Mark, as I have also stated before, I have tried to e mail support many of times over what has been close to a year, but received no response. That is half of the problem here. I know I will never get any refund for the few hundred dollars that I have given them. But I would like some type of explanation and maybe some ways as to getting this thing to give me some results, since I have taken on almost all of the advice from the forum and wiki. I would also like to see this become safe guarded, so other people arent thrown into the hole I have been.
  • Nat
    Posts: 90
    I hate to double post, but why only a warranty on some products and not others?
  • impimp
    Posts: 72
    [QUOTE=Nat;97851]I hate to double post, but...from nearly a year ago -
    http://www.aneros.com/forum/f5/aneros-crash-course-my-final-plea-14535/#post88800
  • The_BishopThe_Bishop
    Posts: 810
    Support, please lock this thread, it is going nowhere.
  • darwindarwin
    Posts: 1,195
    bishop,

    agreed that it is going nowhere. the reason is that Nat has a different perspective then the guys who frequent the forum. he's debating with the chorus. he has made some good points, and there have been some good responses by many voices.

    but, by no means should support lock the thread. that should be reserved for seriously problematic threads, not threads that are going nowhere. we are extremely lucky to have a hands-off moderator. the way to handle a nowhere thread is to avoid replying.

    darwin
  • ten_s_nutten_s_nut
    Posts: 816
    Gentlemen;

    I agree with Darwin. There is no reason to close this thread or censure Nat in any way. He has made some valid points. His main complaint being that Aneros does not adequately warn potential customers of the difficulty some unknown percentage of users have with the product.

    One factor pertaining to the lack of a strong warning on packaging could be that the products DO improve conventional sex experiences for a very high percentage of users. Many independent product reviews around the Web refer to the possibility of Super-Os, but recommend the product based on how well it works in solo or partnered sex of the usual kind.

    Cheers,

    Dave
  • PommiePommie
    Posts: 709
    There is such a thing as "BUYER BEWARE"!

    That is the other side of the coin that the customer is always right.

    I believe both statements are true and that Nat should accept that.

    I really can't see the problem with Aneros devices or their attitude to marketing or support, but hen I am one of the very many men who are receiving positive responses!

    Pommie
  • support
    Posts: 229
    Hello Nat and Forum Members,

    We appreciate all of your thoughts. Nat, you've made a ton of different points throughout this thread and we'll try to hit most of them.

    Our guarantee policy is the only one of its kind in the industry that we are aware of. As Darwin writes, it really is unheard of.

    There is no secondary market for our products. If you return your MGX for a refund we cannot turn around and sell it to another someone else for 90% of it's value like you can with golf clubs. We can't restock it and sell it again. Returned items come back to us and go straight into the garbage can but not before we get the returner's comments and suggestions that we can use to make future improvements. The items are a loss to us, but the feedback we get is invaluable. The Helix, Maximus, Eupho and Progasm were all born out of feedback from our customers.

    Consider how we can have any sort of guarantee policy at all. The answer is that we believe in our products. We believe they are the best in the world, the best in a market which we created. We think our customers believe in our products. The feedback we get backs up this sentiment. Our incidence of returns is extremely low. The positive feedback we get from our customers greatly outnumbers the negative.

    We understand that prostate massage is not "mainstream" and therefore is something new that most men are jumping into. The 90-day guarantee policy hopefully provides a sense of security for our customers because they are trying something very new and different, but we can only offer this policy because of the ongoing success our customers have.
    While we strive for a 100% success rate for every customer and every product, for reasons anatomical, physical, psychological or a combination thereof, for some men it just doesn't happen. For those that have tried, tried, tried and have gotten nowhere, the guarantee policy provides what we consider to be a solid amount of time to make some progress and is a good point for one to come to a decision whether he wants to continue on the journey or stop.

    Hopefully, during the 90 days, a new user will experience great sensations right off the bat, gradually make progress, or feel sparks and changes that represent something good to come that encourage him to continue the journey. At a minimum, if used as plug-and-play, the Aneros undoubtably enhances a traditional penile orgasm. If after this period nothing happens, we happily accept the product for a refund according to our policy if that is what the customer wishes to do.

    We really don't completely grasp the whole "strung along" point you have been trying to make it. In your time here on the forum you have received nothing but honest encouragement from the other forum members. If the result of all this help the community has provided you is for you to feel "strung along" we really don't know what to tell you.

    You say you have spent hundreds of dollars on our products. This would suggest that you have 3-4 models which is a large number. I don't think anyone on the forum would suggest for you to go out and buy a bunch of models to find one that works for you. No one at the company would suggest for you to go out and buy a bunch of models either. We question why would you spend hundreds of dollars when you felt like you weren't getting support from the company and at the same time felt like you were strung along by the community.

    You made a great choice in the Helix as your first model and really this is the only model you need. Based on skimming some of your past posts we do see that you made some progress which is a great sign. You may just be in for a longer journey than you expected or had hoped like Love Is.

    The reason why we have spent time and effort to setup the forum, wiki, blogs, chat, Aneros Me, (failed) Bee-Line is that we recognize the power of *this* very special community. We want to create as many useful ways as possible for everyone here to share their experiences. What better way to hear and learn about our products than from other users? Certainly hearing about other users' experiences, positive or negative, is preferable to any "corporate speak" coming from us, right?

    Now if you felt that you did not get enough or the right support from our company at any point in time, this is an entirely different issue and needs to be addressed by our team. Customer service is extremely important to us. Please forward any emails that you felt did receive not satisfactory responses to [email]websupport@aneros.com[/email]. We'll go back and try to pull any communications between us and you to see if we had a lapse in our customer support. So again, if we failed to address your "individual instance" of failure, we'd love the opportunity to try to help. Please note we are available via phone as well. Frankly, the advice and encouragement you get here is outstanding and would be on par with what we could provide you, so don't overlook that.

    As far as our marketing goes, there is always room for improvement. We actually have over the years toned down the hype in our language significantly. We feel on a whole, it is fairly balanced. For example, this is the text from our "Super-O" page in the Learning Center:

    "Many men can achieve the “Super-O” on the first use of the Aneros. For others, it will take patience, relaxation, and practice — months, sometimes even more than a year. This is what we call “the path to the Super-O.” During this time the man will become more in tune with his body and the Aneros. And the problem for some is that the more the man concentrates and wants to force the “Super-O” to happen, it becomes even more elusive. For many men totally giving in to themselves and the sensations they are feeling, giving up the desire to control their sensations allows them to break through."

    We do want people who visit the site to be excited about our products. We choose to do this via the customer testimonials and not from juiced up marketing language.

    As far as the possible tens of thousands of users who have had no success at all, you are right, they could be out there, but we doubt it. Again, we have a very low rate of return, and in the age of the internet, if you feel like you are getting ripped off, it is incredibly easy to make your feelings known publicly for everyone to see, and to do so completely anonymously. If our products were garbage, then you would see tons of people here posting about their negative experiences. Do a Google search and you'll find generally the same thing on independent forums. Search on Aneros reviews and positive ones greatly outweigh the negatives, in our opinion, for good reason.

    Some more points:

    1. Product testers - we have a core group of testers and they tend to be experienced. We also have had novice testers as well and plan to use novices in the future. We tend to lean on the more experienced testers because they are able to articulate about the nuances of the product and describe in great detail the most minute sensations they feel which can lead to tweaks to our designs. We cannot get this same kind of feedback from novice users.

    2. Creating products for experienced users - your thought process is foreign to us here. All of our community tools were created to help everyone achieve success with our products. Don't mistake us not jumping in on every thread on the forum for lack of compassion. This forum and the wiki are by the community, for the community. Again for your specific case, we need to take a look at what you perceived to be a lack of support and see how we can help.

    We have products that are great for beginners - the SGX, MGX and Helix have long track records for being excellent starter models, especially the Helix and MGX (hence they are our bestsellers). Our most recent products have been on the advanced side because they've filled holes in our product line up. We don't recommend the Vice for beginners because the vibrations will mask the subtle sensations you should feel during the rewiring process. The Tempo came largely due to the enthusiasm of those here on the forum who love the Peridise but wanted a more weighted feel. So while we will never rule out creating more "beginner" products we feel like the Helix and MGX do a great job of covering this customer segment.

    3. Helixer - you are obviously not up to speed with his situation. We have communicated *extensively* with him about why the way he crafts his opinions more than his opinions themselves turn off the other members. Extensively. Helixer is actually one of our biggest fans but ultimately, could not express himself in a way that adhered to the forum guidelines. He would have been banned from many other forums long before he was banned here.

    So Nat, we hope this post addresses some of your concerns. We doubt you will agree with all of it, but at least you know where we are coming from. While we design and hope for 100% success for all our customers, we aren't selling DVDs or clock radios. Our products are precisely anatomically designed but it is the combination of slight variations - anatomical, physical state, mental state - which don't allow us to tell you exactly how to have a breakthrough. If we knew all the mysteries of rewiring and the Super-O, we'd publish the definitive step-by-step guide to reaching it. Unfortunately, we don't know all the mysteries.

    However, we do feel like we have provided a framework with our community tools that provide you and every other user the most honest and authentic information possible to be successful with the Aneros. In your specific case, because you did experience sensations, we still have hope that a breakthrough is in your future.

    thanks,
    Aneros Support
  • support
    Posts: 229
    Nat, one thing - we wish we had read your Final Plea thread earlier, just read it now. Around this time or actually before you plunked down more money for the Eupho, Progasm and Peridise would have been a good time for you to communicate directly with us. Note there have been times in the past and there likely will be in the future when we are not actively reading what is going on here. Please fwd your past email communications with us to [email]websupport@aneros.com[/email].
  • Nat
    Posts: 90
    I first want to thank support for responding to this thread. In order to better address the post, I am going to use quotes.

    Our incidence of returns is extremely low. The positive feedback we get from our customers greatly outnumbers the negative.

    I think the point I was trying to get at was the dedication factor between satisfied and unsatisfied customers. I myself am a very vocal individual. Therefore, if I really like a product, I am going to tell people. If I really dislike a product, I will do the same. However, in reality most people arent that way. To me atleast, it seems very logical that a company is going to hear more positives than negatives, because those that are enthusiastic about the product are the ones most willing to discuss it. Where as those that are frustrated dont want to participate and stress themselves out further. In the case of Aneros, it could very well be a money situation such as mine, where they are frustrated they wasted so much money. In other cases it could be as other members have mentioned before, being that when you see thread after thread of people having major milestone success, you push even harder.

    I guess my question would than be, since the return rate is low, how many of those potential returns may not happen because : A) the user bought the item in a store and cannot return it, or B) other members told them the process takes longer than 90 days and now no longer have a warranty? Obviously no one can answer that, but this is the type of market research that companies need to do with their products if they are part of such a unique niche market like Aneros is.

    For those that have tried, tried, tried and have gotten nowhere, the guarantee policy provides what we consider to be a solid amount of time to make some progress and is a good point for one to come to a decision whether he wants to continue on the journey or stop.

    As someone who is in development for a social media business, the way that consumers buy products these days is not traditional. We are more likely to be loyal to a product if those around us are loyal to a product. Therefore, think about how these forums work. We have a community here of successful users and enthusiasts for the Aneros product. I have seen many times before, even with myself, situations where members have said "Help, I hit a roadblock". In response, more successful users will say "Give it time, put the model away for a few weeks and come back to it". If this is the case (and from my personal knowledge of the forums, decent advice to members), how is the struggling user supposed to accurately make the decision to stop or not? I know if I had posted a thread about not having success a week after getting the product and received a bunch of responses about how I should quit and one response saying I shouldnt, chances are I would be swayed to quit. This forum acts the opposite way. Because we have so many members here with high levels of success, they are going to encourage struggling users to continue. Keeping in mind how social product buying and maintaining is these days, how much can Aneros as a product line further support struggling users, when in fact a warranty is no longer in place? As a company, if you havent thought of this before, maybe it is a good question to ask if you are looking to further develop the website, chat, or forums.

    We really don't completely grasp the whole "strung along" point you have been trying to make

    The thread title was created by whomever moved the post, not me. In other words, I dont feel as though I have been strung along as much as I feel I have been misinformed. I feel that for every great thing that can be said about any product, there is an opposite side. Aside from members encouraging other members to continue on their journey, no one ever gets the chance to express the other side. I know in the past when I have seen it, other more experienced members come out of the wood work only to take jabs at the member, claiming they are either trying to start trouble, or that the product isnt working because of them and not the product. In a lot of cases, because Aneros is partly a psychological thing, that might be true. However, I shake my head at the concept that a piece of plastic that someone created is always right, but a living, breathing, human being is always wrong. I know that sounds a bit too dramatic, but some members go to that extreme. I hate to pick on anyone, but look at the responses of imp and Bishop. One feels this discussion is only here to complain, while the other wants the thread locked because he feels personally that the thread is going nowhere. Some people cant handle different perspectives, making those that want to give those perspectives afraid to speak out, in the end making the community all one sided. Again, this is a different effect of social consumerism, as I talked about earlier in this post. If companies are going to go the social route (as they should), they need to realize this and allow debates such as this one to occur.

    We question why would you spend hundreds of dollars when you felt like you weren't getting support from the company and at the same time felt like you were strung along by the community.

    My reasons for using Aneros to begin with are different than those of most members. I did not buy it for health, nor did I buy it is a sex toy. I really dont want to discuss it, because it is a very personal issue. Why I stuck around had to do with a few things. When using a new product that isnt mainstream, there is always a bit of doubt in your mind as to if you are using the product correctly. So in my journey of about 3 years, I wanted to make sure that I exhausted my resources. I sat in member chats going through different ways I could approach a session, I took breaks, consulted the wiki, did Rumels audio recording sessions, and yes.. even tried different models. Now, whether you believe me or not, members did tell me that some models work for some people and not others. I was also told that the movement or placement of one model over another effects everyones body different, meaning a member might always hit a brick wall if they plug away at one model. In the case of the Peridise, I was told that it is a good model for struggling users because you can use it without being in a traditional session, getting your body used to the comfort levels, movements, and sensations. Now, exactly what members told me this and when are sketchy, seeing as most of my participation in the community happened in chats.

    Customer service is extremely important to us. Please forward any emails that you felt did receive not satisfactory responses to [EMAIL="websupport@aneros.com"]websupport@aneros.com[/EMAIL]. We'll go back and try to pull any communications between us and you to see if we had a lapse in our customer support.

    With all due respect, you honesty feel that I would have saved sent e mails from a bit over a year ago?

    So again, if we failed to address your "individual instance" of failure, we'd love the opportunity to try to help.

    I am interested to know how you plan to help, seeing as though I have tried different models, did Rumels audio sessions, took on a lot of the advice of members, and the wiki. What else havent we touched on? If so I would gladly work with you on this. Again, I am not saying all this to start trouble. I do want to support the product and get it to work. I just feel the money has been a waste.

    2. Creating products for experienced users - your thought process is foreign to us here.

    You misunderstood my point. Let me give an example. To my knowledge (because I dont own the vice) the vice is basically a Progasm, but with vibration. All this time and energy was put into creating and promoting this model, yet there are so many users out there having trouble getting the normal Progasm to create success. Sure, there is a point to where you need to move on and introduce new products, but you also need to communicate with those having trouble with existing products with just as much enthusiasm as you do with new products. This is why product labs for new concepts like Aneros have to be huge. I would question, while you have people sitting in the lab creating new models, do you have people sitting in the lab with old product trying to figure out what might be causing a lack of success for some users? The same goes for the Peridise. You guys are focused on the creation of a steel one, when a lot of use cant begin to get consistent with the original.

    I do have comments on your product tester system, but I think I will leave that for e mail communication.

    Thank again.
  • ten_s_nutten_s_nut
    Posts: 816
    Nat,

    I've been following this thread with interest since it covers a wide range of user satisfaction issues and related marketing tactics. At this point, I'm speculating that you would be less unhappy if in your next Aneros session you had a breakthrough, however you choose to define that.

    But now I'm curious. What would it take to make you a "happy camper?" All your money refunded? Revised wording on the product packaging to inform potential buyers that some users may never achieve satisfactory results? An apology from Aneros management? An apology from certain Forum members? All of the above?

    Sincerely,

    Dave
  • MarkM
    Posts: 33
    Tens,

    As you said, short of Nat making a total breakthrough I suspect that there is nothing that will satisfy him at this point. But since he is no longer using or "supporting" the product it's unlikely to happen. Just an observation, but every time that someone answers one of his concerns he either ignores it or states that it isn't good enough. Support has already explained to him that if a large population of dissatisfied users existed they would be conspicuously all over the internet. This is not the case. My impression of what he is saying now is, so long as there is one dissatisfied user HIH has an obligation to completely change their business model. I wish him all the luck in the world with his own business enterprise following a notion like that.

    From my perspective, as a business owner, there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with HIH/Aneros business model, I would not change a thing!

    All of that said, I feel that this thread should remain open. Nat has not been abusive and has as much right as anyone else to make his feelings known. However, he doesn't have more right either. I think it is important that we don't all exaggerate the significance of one dissenting opinion here. He's all but said that his mind is made up, I don't really think that anybody is going to say anything that will impact his thinking. Perhaps Abraham Lincoln said it best when he remarked that you can please some of the people some of the time, all of the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time, but you can never please all of the people all of the time. Or to put it more tersely, there's no satisfying some people! My sense is that everyone's energy would be better spent trying to help those who are open to assistance.

    I will leave it at that and leave to others to decide if they want to perpetuate this debate. I'm off to my Progasm, tootles!

    All the best to you Nat


    Mark
  • impimp
    Posts: 72
    [QUOTE=MarkM;97881]All the best to you Nat[QUOTE=rook;97780]Blessings to you Nat.[QUOTE=artform;97776]I wish you well in your business Nat and however you choose to follow your MMO interest. All the best![QUOTE=Pommie;97749]Good Luck![QUOTE=Pareidolia;97699]Cheers...[QUOTE=imp;88800]Bon Voyage et Bon Chance in your future endeavors.We may not agree with your opinions but we do hope you find your Nirvana somewhere else, if not here, Shalom.
  • Nat
    Posts: 90
    I was going to respond, but I will just ask one thing :

    He's all but said that his mind is made up, I don't really think that anybody is going to say anything that will impact his thinking.



    Can you please quote where I specifically said that my mind was made up? If you read my last post you would notice that I told support that I am wiling to work with them, but was unsure if there was anything left to try.

    In all honesty, if you dont like my perspective, say so. However, there is no need to put words into anyones mouths. If the thread frustrates you so much that you cannot offer a response that isnt putting judgment on a member, simply move onto the next thread. No one here is trying to start trouble.

    Dave, to address you, I really dont think I can answer your question. The only thing I can say is that I have given a lot of loyalty, time, and money to Aneros. In return I want something a bit more than a few random sensations over 3 years time. The give and take ratio doesnt seem to even come close for even the money I have spent.
  • rookrook
    Posts: 1,603
    Nat,

    You were here for months before I started my journey and some of your posts along with the resulting dialog were a part of my early education about Aneros toys.

    Your early 'tingles,' apparent growth of energy in your chest (heart chakra ?), and 'twinkling lights' on the ceiling when you opened your eyes were impressive happenings that confirmed your early progress. When you reported the improvement of your married sex life and attributed that to your Aneros sessions I was impressed.

    Your 'final plea' thread was somewhat puzzling to me. Your posts in this thread, when contrasted with your early enthusiasm for the Aneros tend to indicate another "finality."

    This morning i did an 'user name' search and reviewed your early threads. I find it hard to believe that in your early Aneros use, you were not a rather satisfied customer.

    If you are really amenable to this practice it might be well to return, perhaps not to 'square one' but to your roots in 2008.

    jm2cw ... rook
  • Billy11
    Posts: 280

    My reasons for using Aneros to begin with are different than those of most members. I did not buy it for health, nor did I buy it is a sex toy. I really dont want to discuss it, because it is a very personal issue.



    Errr huh? Well then why are you upset about it 'not working as a sex toy then if that's not why you bought it?

    Like others have pointed out the fact that Aneros has any kind of money back guarantee is pretty much amazing. Seriously I just don't get why you're so damn pissed about the money aspect of all this. There's people starving to death all over the world and you're pissed because you're out a few hundred $$ that was spent over the course of a few years. Would you be as pissed off if they didn't have a money back guarantee in the first place? Even without a money back guarantee I wouldn't hesitate to spend a few hundred $$ for a chance to experience MMO's even if I did know that there was a chance that the product wouldn't work for me. That's an easy gamble to take right there. I actually read the forum for awhile before taking the plunge. By doing that I learned before I even bought it that some users have difficulties achieving success with the product.

    Even if you're not getting the results you'd had hoped for, the Aneros is great for your prostate and butt anyways. I haven't used the aneros for awhile now and I can fully feel the difference. It's like I stopped going to the gym. Ejaculations aren't as intense as when I was using the Aneros and I don't have that amazing control like I did while having sex like then.




    You misunderstood my point. Let me give an example. To my knowledge (because I dont own the vice) the vice is basically a Progasm, but with vibration. All this time and energy was put into creating and promoting this model, yet there are so many users out there having trouble getting the normal Progasm to create success.



    Yea and there are plenty of users having great success with the Progasm. I'm not sure what you're asking of the Aneros team here? To study why the Progasm isn't working for some and then change the design of it? Which wouldn't make any sense since it works great for others.

    I know you don't want to hear this but again I feel the problem lies within the user, not the product. I've had the most amazing sessions ever with my aneros.... And I've had sessions where pretty much nothing happens. So when I have sessions where I'm getting no where is it the Aneros fault? No. It's me. It's my body not being in the right state or what not to have MMO's.


    I'm not sure anybody here or support can help you anymore than they already have. I feel even if you got your money back you still wouldn't be satisfied. Think it's more just frustration that you haven't had the success that you'd like. You've experienced good sessions obviously because you said so in your old posts. So you know there's something there. The energy is within you. This negativity you're feeling though isn't the route to take to unlock it.
  • PommiePommie
    Posts: 709
    Nat,

    You said in Post #33 above:

    "You misunderstood my point. Let me give an example. To my knowledge (because I dont own the vice) the vice is basically a Progasm, but with vibration. All this time and energy was put into creating and promoting this model, yet there are so many users out there having trouble getting the normal Progasm to create success."



    If you don't own a "Vice", it's my guess that you have never handled or used one. If you had, you would know that the "Vice" is a very different animal from the Progasm. I have little doubt that there are now users of both who have found that the Vice works where the Progasm didn't. I do own both and I have some reservations on both (for quite different reasons). I just happen to find that other models work better for me, but even that depends on my mood on the night.
  • Nat
    Posts: 90
    Billy, with all due respect, we all come from different financial situations. With that said, it is none of any ones business to tell someone that just because spending a few hundred dollars on a product isnt important to you, doesnt mean its the same for everyone else. One thing is for sure, regardless of if it was $5 or $500, the product still doesnt work for everyone. Warranty or not, that is still a fact. So a company is putting out a product while throwing their hands in the air saying "it may work, it may not".

    I never said that they should redesign. What I was saying is that they still need to work out why it doesnt work for a lot of people.

    Also, just because I felt a handful of sensation in over 3 years times, does not mean I had good sessions.

    I still also love how people feel they cannot continue a conversation, because they disagree with the point of views. Just because you assume something to be so, doesnt mean it actually is.
  • PolecatPolecat
    Posts: 56
    [QUOTE=Nat;97964]Billy, with all due respect, we all come from different financial situations. With that said, it is none of any ones business to tell someone that just because spending a few hundred dollars on a product isnt important to you, doesnt mean its the same for everyone else. One thing is for sure, regardless of if it was $5 or $500, the product still doesnt work for everyone. Warranty or not, that is still a fact. So a company is putting out a product while throwing their hands in the air saying "it may work, it may not".

    I never said that they should redesign. What I was saying is that they still need to work out why it doesnt work for a lot of people.

    Also, just because I felt a handful of sensation in over 3 years times, does not mean I had good sessions.

    I still also love how people feel they cannot continue a conversation, because they disagree with the point of views. Just because you assume something to be so, doesnt mean it actually is.


    I would agree, I think we should leave well enough alone about someone's abilities to pay for things. My attitude is that the cost of the Aneros isn't inexpensive but is well in the ball park of a lot of sexual devices that are out there. The difference with the Aneros is that it is one of the few sexual devices that truly works and this is where I take exception with what you're saying. You've written " What I was saying is that they still need to work out why it doesnt work for a lot of people." This is a false premise, you've offered absolutely nothing to support this. The glass half full perspective is that it works for a lot of people. A more accurate statement might be that some people have trouble finding success with it. Given the large amount of people that have found success with the device there is no need for the manufacturer to change the product itself or how they market it. To their credit they have provided a Forum for users of the product to come together and help one another. There is no question that this resource has helped many more men find success with the device. As others have said, like any product that requires a certain skill level, there will be some folks that don't get it. Fortunately that number has been fairly few with the Aneros. As Support had mentioned, if a widespread dissatisfaction existed with this product, there would be no keeping it a secret. It would be all over the internet.

    With respect to those who chose not to continue a conversation with you, perhaps it is because there is nothing more to say to someone whose mind seems to be made up . I looked at some of your past posts as well prior to my comments here about sensations that you experienced and you didn't always have such a negative characterization of them. Your statement about being somehow "thrown into a hole" is illustrative too of a closed mind. That kind of hyperbole doesn't do anyone here (or the manufacturer) justice. Seriously, you will never find a more helpful group of people than here in this Forum. Lastly, the fact that you would side with a notorious character in this forum without even checking into his background, simply because he was in conflict with the general membership, doesn't speak much for your sense of openness either. That person was absolutely enamored with the product! As a matter of fact he stated on many occasions that he thought it was one of the greatest accomplishments of mankind (I'm not exaggerating).



    Paul
  • ten_s_nutten_s_nut
    Posts: 816
    Nat;

    I'm happy to continue a friendly conversation with you. I agree with your point that the manufacturer should be more up-front with the fact that an unknown percentage of men who attempt to find satisfaction with an Aneros device will fail. The exact way to present that information in a reasonable manner that doesn't negatively impact sales and at the same time warns the potential buyer is something I can't specify. I don't think the package needs a scary blurb like the one on a pack of cigarettes. Nor would a weaselly warning like the fine print accompanying a prescription medication be appropriate. Perhaps something along these lines:

    "Product performance varies across a wide spectrum, depending on many factors. Some men will achieve first-time success. Others will never achieve a satisfactory result. Please visit our website for usage and warranty information."

    Would that do it for you?

    Sincerely,

    Dave
  • RipTheJacker
    Posts: 240
    IMO helixer was an interesting guy although a bit enamored with his own intellect and opinions ...

    but maybe we all are - at least in a measure

    ... he was tiresome but i may also be so

    i personally took offense at his preaching a very negative attitude toward women ...

    my impression is that a majority here are more heterosexual than homosexual

    ... yet i don't pick up - and hope i don't betray - too much homophobia

    all i ask is that i be given me a warning before i get thrown off

    - rip
  • Nat
    Posts: 90
    I am looking at this issue as an individual buyer, because I believe that since we are not working with accurate stats here, no one can truly say what percentage of users gain success or not. However, I think you would be really naive to think that I am one of only a few people that have no success. More importantly, I dont like the idea of me giving a few hundred dollars to a company, only for me not to get a product that doesnt work and that I am the problem. Again.. I am waiting for an answer, where is the line drawn? Or is it that Aneros is the god of all sex toys and can never be questioned?

    Ask yourself if you were me, what positive would have been gained from this? I spent a few hundred dollars in order to get pieces of plastic that have done little to nothing for me, which I cant send back or resell. All in all spending hours of time wasted in sessions and trying to talk with other users about ways to get the product to work (when those ways should be given to you with the model)/ All in the end to be told that I am the bad guy, because I was dumb enough to support a company product for over 3 years, when I shouldnt have given it more time than 6 months. Have I made up my mind, no. Go back and read my response to support. However, no one has offered me anything new here. I dont take that as people not wanting to help. I take that as, after 3 years time, what else is there to say that hasnt already been said? People on here have expressed what they have done and I have been through all that. What is next?

    Ten, I think in order to have a successful product, you need to provide the buyer with almost everything that they need in order to get the product to work. In the case of Aneros, I believe that as you stated, something such as that should be stated on the packaging and told to retail buyers. They also need to make clear to retailers that if a user buys the product in a store, they will not be able to return it as they would if bought on the website. Sure, that would scare off a lot of retailers for carrying Aneros products, but not only is that the backlash of a stipulations based warranty, but your job as a the seller should be to be true to the customer.

    One thought : If it might be needed for a user to view a long wiki, have drawn out threads on a forum, and use audio recordings in order to get the Aneros to work, how many buyers out there that are not aware of this are at a disadvantage from day one? This is why I say that if I have to spend all this time trying to get the thing to work, then the product isnt perfected yet. If the product isnt perfected, I would think the company would still be trying to perfect it, rather than just pushing out new product. There is a difference between a learned skill such as a sport or talent and basic product use. And as I have learned through the development of my own business, the most unique products might be great, but if people cannot grasp how that product works and for it to have consistent results for everyone, chances are people arent ready for that product. I know those that have had large amounts of results would disagree, but I would have been happier if I never heard of Aneros, only to hear about it say 5 years from now when the product is perfected. That way I could have spent all that money, but atleast had a better indication of the product, how it works, and the piece of mind that the concept has been around long enough that the product is as polished as it could be. Its just like technology. I would have never gone out and bought the first line of DVD players. They might have worked, but they were pieces of junk. However, waiting around for the 2nd or 3rd generation of DVD players, you are still paying the high end price, but are finally getting a good product.

    The reason that products such as these typically dont have warranties are because they are black and white. If you get a vibrator, it is either going to work or not. Vibrators are sucha mainstream thing that everyone knows that you are not going to need to discuss its use and a million other things in order to get started. Aneros is the oposite. Just because a product is in a mainstream industry, you cant assume it is automatically equal to everything else in that industry. Again, I have gone into stores and asked about Aneros. They can only tell me that they have heard mixed results and that they can kind of tell me how the product works. If it was mainstream, their answers would be more confident than that.

    As for Helixer, message board banning and arguments always confuse me. In all honesty, if you dislike a person or topic, what is so wrong with stating your opinion and moving on or just skipping a thread all together? Message boards were created so that people can share different opinions and perspectives. These days, if you dont agree with the majority you are considered to be breaking the rules, which is why forums now have full proof rules saying things like "we can make up rules at any time we please under any circumstances". In my opinion, someone should not be banned from a forum unless they are spamming or breaching member privacy.
  • PolecatPolecat
    Posts: 56
    Nat,

    All of your issues have been repeatedly addressed by forum members and Aneros support. The fact that you are now repeating the same questions indicates that you've chosen to ignore much of what has been said and/or that you don't like the answers that have been given. The "is Aneros the god of all sex toys and can never be questioned?" crack is petulant, sad and really uncalled for.

    For example, the following has been stated to you twice already (once be me and once by support) and you've chosen to ignore it, if there were some large group of dissatisfied users it would not be a secret. Surely with all the other boards and forums and blogs out there, such a thing would be obvious by now. Your only response, if you can call it that, "I think you would be really naive to think that I am one of only a few people that have no success." Personally, I think it's uninformed to assume that there is some large group of people who are not having success simply because it has been the case for you! Particularly since there is an absence of evidence to support it.

    With respect to Helixer, it is now clear that you know very little of what transpired with this individual. The problem with this guy was not that he had unpopular opinions, it was that he was engaging in monotonous, megalomaniacal, hateful, rants, which was and is in violation of the forum user agreement. But if you want to hang your star with him go right ahead.

    @Dave, the Aneros is a sex toy, NOT a pharmaceutical product. It comes with a 3 month refund / guarantee, something no other sex toy provides. This is a satisfaction guarantee by the way, something that makes it even more unique for this kind of device. It not only about quality and workmanship, in essence within 3 months time one can claim, "it didn't make me come" and receive their money back! Even if there were warranties for dildos, can you envision a manufacturer offering that kind of product performance guarantee? I think not. As far as tailoring warnings to meet Nat's approval, I think that's pretty inappropriate, besides you'll notice that it didn't satisfy him. I suspect that even a full refund wouldn't do it for him at this point because then he'd have us consider all the time he's wasted.


    I think MarkM had it right, " my sense is that everyone's energy would be better spent trying to help those who are open to assistance".


    Paul
  • darwindarwin
    Posts: 1,195
    can we PLEASE let this tiresome thread die a natural death?

    darwin
  • Nat
    Posts: 90

    The "is Aneros the god of all sex toys and can never be questioned?" crack is petulant, sad and really uncalled for.

    For example, the following has been stated to you twice already (once be me and once by support) and you've chosen to ignore it, if there were some large group of dissatisfied users it would not be a secret. Surely with all the other boards and forums and blogs out there, such a thing would be obvious by now.



    It is not uncalled for, because it is a realistic question. I asked where the line is drawn between the product not working and it being an issue with the user. Not only did I not get a straight forward answer, but I am getting hostile comments from members just because they cant give an answer. Dont be frustrated, because that is part of my point. I dont believe anyone can actually say where the line is drawn, meaning the product still needs some development. Aneros gives a 90 day warranty, but can the Aneros team take a stand and say that if the product doesnt work within 90 days, it could most likely be a no go? I know that this is really not the case, because it has taken years for some users to get success, but I feel as though the team that made the product should be able to give an answer or atleast an idea. This then needs to be clearly stated to buyers and adapted in the warranty. Also, no one answered why the warranty only applies for online orders. If this is the case, why even sell Aneros in stores if you are blindly putting buyers at a disadvantage? Most people do not check out the fine print unless they are at the store about to buy or at home after buying.

    I was not ignoring anything. So what, there arent as many vocal people that are dissatisfied with the product. My question was never "how many dissatisfied customers", it was "what measures are you taking to deal with dissatisfied customers". I could care less about how many people arent getting success. What I care about is that those who are not getting success either get the product to work, or dont have to walk away with no closure. So no.. all my questions have not been answered. So have been danced around, but not answered. My above phrasing was just to say that users act as though Aneros is perfect and can never do anything wrong, not even be questioned, making it the god of sex toys.

    It might be a bit uninformed to assume that since I have not had success that a large amount of others have not. However, it is just as uninformed to assume that since you have had success, that most users are satisfied. Again.. this is part of my point from above. No one can actually say besides the Aneros team, who I doubt has these stats.

    As for the warranty, the the post earlier in the thread is correct, it is a 2 month warranty, not 3 month. Besides that, the warranty is only valid on online orders and specific models. Just for thought, because I know everyone will attack me for asking this : If Anerose is as confident in their product line enough to give a warranty on products when other companies wont, why are they unwilling to put their ass on the line when it comes to all of their products?

    As for Helixer, I read a lot of his posts, but dont know the guy. However, if I am reading something that I dont like, typically unless it is within a conversation I am having, I just skip it over and move on. I am adult enough to realize that everyone in the world holds different values and opinions. When you create a forum on the internet, you are asking people of all different forms of life around the world to come together and discuss a subject. Therefore, whether you are an administrator, moderator, or member, you are going to run into members that you disagree with, find offensive, and so on. This is the case even more so offline. So.. in these cases, what do you do offline? You might remove yourself from the situation, allowing you to move on with your values and opinions as well as the other individual. Why is it so hard to do here? They cant members just move onto the next thread? Surely members dont read everything thread posted, because if they did they might have way too much time on their hands. This leads to a lot of unneed posts, such as Darwins last one. Darwin, if you dont like the way the thread is going, why continue reading?

    Those blanket forum terms of service write ups are a bit too gray. What say me and you might consider hateful, a person in a different part of the world or even state might not.
  • impimp
    Posts: 72
    Opinions, opinions, opinions, yada, yada, yada.:)[quote=source unknown]Opinions are like assholes. Everybody's got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks.[quote=source unknown]OPINIONS - They're just like farts. Everyone can have them but they never amount to crap.[quote=source unknown]Opinions are like noses. Everyone has one, and most people think theirs smells the best.[quote=source unknown]Opinions are like bellybuttons. They're mostly good at gathering lint.[quote=source unknown]Opinions are like onions. Some make you cry, some make you stink.[quote=source unknown]Opinons are like armpits. Everyone should use real information as a deodorant before airing theirs in public.:)
  • PolecatPolecat
    Posts: 56
    Nat,

    It's pretty clear how far gone you are when you're still trying to deny something as factual as the guarantee. MarkM corrected you on this earlier, he posted the entire thing! Again, it's a 90-day 100% money back guarantee. There is no question about it. Go to: Prostate Massage, Sex Toys for Men, Male G-Spot, Prostate Stimulators Stimulation, Anal Toys . Look in the left corner for "100% guarantee", click on that. You should have no trouble grasping it. But then again, maybe you will! This thread is the truest confirmation of the old adage that people see what they want to see!

    For you, it's the glass half empty Nat, the glass half empty.

    As usual Darwin has this one right too, this is going nowhere. Enjoy yourself my friend.



    Paul


    p.s Imp's last quip about opinions being like deodorant nails it!
  • rookrook
    Posts: 1,603
    bump ........

    [quote=darwin;98007]can we please let this tiresome thread die a natural death?

    Darwin