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foreskin conspiracy
  • darwindarwin
    Posts: 1,195
    i have been trying to figure out why oh why in the U.S. do we routinely amputate our infants' foreskin. there is no medical reason to do so, 80% of the world's men have their foreskins, the foreskin is maintenance free, despite misconceptions here to the contrary, and... it is very useful bit of penis. it is highly erogenous, and works very well in the vagina, forming a kind of lock down, letting the penis slide inside its own skin.

    when something this irrational is happening, i figure there must be money involved. i think i finally figured it out. it is the sexual lubricant industry's doing! men and boys who have their foreskin are surprised to learn that those without have to resort to applying slime to the wiener to make it work. the slime industry has undoubtedly conspired with the amputation industry to perpetuate this crime against our boys' penises.

    darwin

    p.s., yes, i am aware that in countries with HIV epidemics circumcision can substantially alleviate the problem. but, there are far better ways, as is demonstrated in the great majority of countries in which HIV is under control.

    p.p.s. sorry for ranting...
  • tokertoker
    Posts: 128
    i only know about the fact that more men in america seem to be circumsised than not from tv one such surprise was when my wife was watching sex and the city and one of the characters reacted in horror when a guy got his dick out and he was not choped it sounded crazy to me so i looked into the matter and have come to a similar conclusion as you dont have universal health care in the us "obama did not go far enough nhs anyone" i reckon the health care industry makes millions doing unnesasary circumsisions among other procedures
  • Badger
    Posts: 648
    Circumcision has been predominantly done as a tradition, as in, "well, my dad is circumcised, I'm circumcised, so by Gum, my son is going to be circumcised." Some have it done for religious reasons, such as the Jews, who were commanded by God to be circumcised. There are many people who have the surgery done as an adult, for health reasons, and a very large portion of the geriatric crowd who didn't get circumcised earlier, who have to get it done for personal hygiene and health reasons. So, no; the doctors aren't doing it out of sheer avarice, and it's most certainly not unnecessary.
  • MarkM
    Posts: 33
    I presume that Darwin's post was offered somewhat tongue and cheek, "foreskin conspiracy", "crimes against penises", "amputation"! lol. Seriously though, there seems to be an almost irrational yearning that surfaces here from time to time, from circumcised guys pining for a missing appendage , conferring all sorts of magical attributes to their long lost foreskins. I've seen other sites where men get very worked up and emotional over this topic. A lot of ego stuff, and fierce defenses of manhood that I can't relate to. (I'm bisexual btw, not sure if that has something to do with it or not ). Anyway, it seems over the top to me. A foreskin just isn't that spectacular, take it from a man who has had it both ways (I'm now circumcised).

    Regarding the supposed attributes of a foreskin, I never found that to be the case with the exception of the need for lube when one is circumcised, which is absolutely true. ( If the AMA starts sponsoring commercials for KY, then maybe I'll start to believing in a slime conspiracy.)image

    While I don't buy a lot of the supposed risks of being uncircumcised there are some downsides to it. The production of smegma for one. Don't let anyone kid you about this, an uncircumcised penis is more maintenance intensive, it is a fact. If you choose to ignore that and you are an uncircumcised man, chances are you have one smelly prick! With all the jokes that go on in some circles about women smelling like fish, uncircumcised guys can be just as odorous. I don't mean to say that all uncircumcised guys should go out and get surgery either. (My decision to do so was influenced by a health concern). I just feel that people should be happy with what they have, long, short, skinny, stout, straight, curved, circumcised or uncircumcised and get about the business of enjoying themselves with it.

    It's surprising to me that this issue comes up here, in a place where the emphasis is on non-penile pleasures. I'm not saying it's off topic, but really there are so many wonderful things to celebrate, things that are much more powerful than having a foreskin, or not.

    Just my two cents

    MarkM
  • Badger
    Posts: 648
    Bravo, MarkM, bravo! I, too, had a circumcision in my 40's, and I don't miss the smelly hands after going to the bathroom, the unbearable itch after contracting a yeast infection under the foreskin, pinching the foreskin in the zipper (yeouch!!), the lack of sensation when ML with the wife, etc. The only thing I do miss is the ease at which I could squeeze out the last drop after urinating, but that's about all.

    You're right about these restorators, there's no sense reasoning with them, it's like trying to reason with a mama grizzly: they're still going to tear you to pieces; you might as well keep it to your self and avoid the inevitable tongue-lashings about how they were traumatized and denied their option to be circumcized as an infant; how it's 'male genital mutilation', no matter the reason. How much do you want to bet that these were the self-same people who tormented us uncircumcized in the locker rooms as a teen? They think they've got the best of both worlds: avoided the ridicule and peer-pressure as a teen, and now getting the better sensation as an adult. But they'll now have a geriatric circumcision to look forward to in the rest home.
  • Just drop it guys this post is not really going anywhere. I already tried a thread like this once and it turned out to be a flame war. Forget about it. We have the freedom to do what we want with our bodies and our entitled to our own opinion on things. That is what makes human beings so unique because we each our different in our own ways. Do not try and bring your experiences, beliefs and things into conversations like these as it will get you nowhere.
  • MarkM
    Posts: 33
    ArcticWolves,

    Thank you. I have no desire to get into any kind of war with anybody, particularly Darwin who I have the highest respect for. I'm lover, not a fighter (trite but true). I was just thinking that I had a unique perspective to share. I understand that there are some topics that are polarizing. I confess that I didn't fully consider this before posting.

    MarkM
  • BusterBuster
    Posts: 953
    I must be "partially" circumcised. I was circumcised at birth but do not need lubrication for masturbation. After witnessing this and other posts, I feel pretty fortunate indeed. I thought all guys were like me, but due to the fact that I have had little to no conversations with other guys about masturbation I had no idea. You learn something new everyday!
  • Edit
    Posts: 0
    Gentlemen....all i would ask you to consider it this.....give the option to the newborn male child, as to whether he ends up intact or circumcised...it is a totally overdone surgery, not needed at all, and as i've pointed out, puts a definate clinch on the options of being cut or not....im a restorer myself, and i have seen my glans go from dried out and cracked to smooth and shiney....i know there are benefits to a foreskin, but i'll keep it, again, very focused....'allow your newborn son the options, for once they're taken away (the option), there can never be a return to how nature made us....thanks, chuck
  • xhepera
    Posts: 48
    These forums and the community of Aneros users are known for their relative civility in the cesspool of "debate" that we call the Internet. Keep it that way.
  • Turnrow
    Posts: 123
    An over sixty guy here with lowering levels of T which makes for less sensitivity in all the T receptor pleasure sites of the penis. I am so thankful for lots of foreskin and believe that I have a minimal circumcision. Daily showers take care of the smegma problem. I havent smelled anything smegma-like since I was a boy about 8 years old.

    The foreskin contains meissner corpuscles which are the same pleasure giving neurological cells found in the frenulum. Google the work of Dr. Fleiss, who is an advocate of keeping the foreskin intact, for his research on meissner cells of the foreskin and pleasure. It is on the web.

    Last year I discovered the foreskin grip method of self pleasure that has revolutionized my bodys response to flagging T levels by edging with this method and not ejaculating. This ups libido and I believe it ups T levels. It sure does make me horny for sex with my wife like a younger man. I would not have this opinion or avenue to benefit me at this age were I circumcised.

    With the foreskin gripped or pulled between the index and middle finger of the stroking hand on the dorsal side/underside of the penis, the meissner cells are pressed against the frenulum and the corona. Massaging the frenulum in this fashion send erogenous orgasmic shock waves through my body even when flaccid. It is especially so with nipple play. This is a great way to get aroused and hard quickly in an aging male body with lower T levels.

    I just wanted to tell you younger guys that the foreskin/meissner cells become very beneficial to us minimally circumcised guys or uncircumcised guys as age encroaches on our sexuality and hormonal levels falls.

    I have no stone to throw at anybody. I am just appreciative that my parents left most of my foreskin intact. It has been a boon for exquisite pleasure to help me combat the ravages of age on my sexuality in edging.

    And, like Darwin says, it is a great pleasure to feel my foreskin pleasuring my penis in sex with my wife as it moves in thrusting.
  • Badger
    Posts: 648
    Hey, it wasn't by choice, it was a medical necessity, and for your information, I'm not entirely pleased with my circumcision; there were horrific and painful complications that have since been worked out. You have no idea whatsoever what I feel or went through.

    And concerning “my” lack of manners, I’m not the one using vulgarities. Because of my unique position, I've been more than willing to share my knowledge and experiences to the inquisitive, that there are advantages and disadvantages to both, and I’ve been more than happy to share with questions by people who were circumcised as an infant and are curious, and what do I get? I get hammered by others seven ways to Sunday, on how there's absolutely no reason to ever circumcise any male, how it's male genital mutilation in all circumstances, how God was wrong to require the Jews to circumcise their infant sons, etc, etc. Quite frankly, I've had it up to here, and I'm no longer taking the crap that these foreskin fascists (yes, that’s what they’re acting like; their opinion is the only one that counts) have been slinging at me, and others who only seem to see what they want, and are looking for a fight.

    In the future, please read previous posts and give a guy the benefit of the doubt before going off half-cocked.
  • Badger, in the future, please refrain from lashing out at the community that has helped you every step of the way. No on is bashing you. You are taking this whole thing way out of context. This post was about a "slime conspiracy" and medical industry being partners in the idea of routine circumcisions. While darwin may be onto something and expressing his feelings on circumcision there is no reason to get all bent out of shape and start saying foreskin restorers are walking all over you. (I have yet to see one but now you'll have them start chiming in)

    There's no doubt that when you are circumcised you lose a hell of a lot of pleasure and your glans becomes keratanized. Anyone who says that they don't miss this increase in sensitivity I really feel bad for. I couldn't imagine what it's like to be circumcised for medical reasons as an adult. The amount of pain one must endure, both psychologically and physically, is enough to make one frustrated and angry. That must have truly sucked and I am sorry that happened to you. However, now you are circumcised and it appears you don't ever want to go back to the "covered" environment. That's fine and there's no problem with that. The problem is you're attacking foreskin restorers for whatever reason and I have no idea why? Darwin is not a foreskin restorer and you're the only one that mentioned the actual word.

    It's one thing to state your opinion on things but you opened yourself up to attacks when you verbally attacked foreskin restorers in your second post in reply to MarkM's. What's unusual is no one attacked you or anything (publicly at least). Yet, you sat there saying how foreskin restorers don't listen and this whole other stuff. What point are you trying to prove? If you're unhappy about your circumcision then so be it but don't try and start attacking foreskin restorers about how it's all overrated because I can assure it's not.

    Chuck has explained one of the key reasons why people restore. The amount of sensation gained in the glans from going to smooth and shiny can only be described by a person like himself. Darwin mentioned though the primary reason of the foreskin for the male during sex is the "gliding motion".

    Before anyone replies to this post again I highly suggest for you to go beyond feelings and look up the scientific facts that have been proven for a male with and without foreskin. Then after weighing both positives/negatives make a post. It's sad that posts like these always end up in someone getting attacked or someone's feelings hurt. It's quite simple though go BEYOND FEELINGS when writing a post that can open yourself up to debate.

    ________________________________

    Badger, no one attacked you prior to your posts. Your posts seem very emotional in your writing and I'm sorry this is an emotional subject for you. I just ask that you look up the scientific facts of male with a foreskin and a male without. Don't sit there trying to convince other males all's you missed is emptying out the last few drops of urine. Surely you miss something else and it may be even too painful for you to talk about and I completely understand. There's always advantages and disadvantages to things in life.
    ________________________________

    All's people are trying to say is to allow an infant the chance to decide for themselves at a later date in their lives if they want to be circumcised and to stop routine infant circumcisions. There's no reason why every infant should be circumcised whatsoever. Most (NOT ALL) routine circumcisions are not done out out of medical necessity, are not life threatening, and are done for religious reasons.

    It's because of whatever reason we can think of to approve of this barbaric practice to make it right (I like darwin's idea :D). By all means if it's causing a life threatening illness or a medical necessity for a serious proven medical condition then I can understand. If not then it should be left in the hands of the infant to decide later on in life. I realize though not all think like me so that is just my opinion on routine infant circumcisions.

    Darwin you're theory could be right but what happens when it comes to anal sex? I guess now one has to look up the reasons why it was invented. Was it invented for vaginal intercourse and later adopted for anal sex or was it invented for anal sex? I don't ever see the slime industry going away as long as anal sex is in existence.

    **Wow so ok I don't think I even want to do the research on this subject of why lubes were created** :)

    My first link of research so far... I don't even want to continue after reading that....http://www.who-does-what.com/articles/article.download.php/15396

    Holy cow trying to find the history of sexual lubricants is MUCH harder then I thought. Glad I'm not writing a paper on this stuff.
  • darwindarwin
    Posts: 1,195
    men-

    i am sorry this thread has become heated.

    badger, i very much appreciate your perspective, and it was very informative to hear about your experiences with both configurations. it might have been better if you had used a little more tempering in your posts, though the flame factor was not very high. i can see why you would be frustrated with often getting attacked for your views on other sites.

    xhepera thank you for editing your post to chill it out.

    while my post had a humorous twist to it, i truly have been trying to figure out why so many parents in the U.S. routinely have their newborns circumcised. of course i don't believe that the lube industry is responsible, but i do think that the medical community is. i had a visit to a pediatric urologist for unrelated issues and asked about foreskin maintenance. i was given a very informative fact sheet that explained how a parent can care for a foreskin (do nothing!), and why circumcision is not necessary. its last line was "Use soap and water... don't amputate." i kid you not. the message is that all a foreskin needs is washing. now... why was i not given that fact sheet before our son was born, to help me make my decision? that is where i believe that the medical community is responsible. further, i wonder if in other countries medical insurance covers elective circumcision.

    what would be even best would be a document that lays out the pros and cons.

    with respect to rates of circumcision in the U.S. here is a site that shows recent statistics:

    *U.S. Circumcision Statistics*

    darwin
  • hulahula
    Posts: 212
    I just want to say that I am very glad I was left intact, and glad that I gave the opportunity to be the same to my sons, despite a lot of pressure at the hospital when they were born, and a lot of bad information given by health professionals. The maintenance and smell issues, and the supposed turn offs of women are greatly exaggerated. A lot of women don't even know that your circumcised, because during foreplay, you can retract the foreskin. And as far as the smell of smegma, a lot of people happen to think it is a very beautiful smell. If your penis is so smelly that your hands get a sickening smell every time you urinate, then you must have had some type of a problem, maybe an infection. That is not the norm for intact guys. The maintenance for intact guys? retract the foreskin while you are taking a shower, and let some water get on it. Would that maintenance on other things (cars, computers, houses) were so pleasurable and so simple. But I certainly agree with the above posters who do not want to turn the Aneros forum into a flaming ground. I don't know why the topic of circumcision is one that usually ends up that way. I just wanted to throw in my $.02.
  • churney
    Posts: 42
    Like hula, I would like to add my 2cents. I wish I had been given the choice to be left intact. But I was not asked. Dad was intact, so I did not look like him. As far as I can find out, 55 years ago they thought it was best to circumcise all male infants, for whatever reason.

    As far as I am concerned, being foreskin less is like being dyslexic, blond, and 5'8". I wish I had a foreskin, I also wish I could spell and not see everything backwards, and I wanted to be over 6'. Aint gonna happen for me. That is life, the cards I was dealt. My folks did what they thought was best, I can not blame them. So who do I blame. It is pointless to try and blame anyone. A complete waste of my time. It was done with the best of intentions.

    What is most important is that an rational open dialog is continued on the subject to educate every parent so an appropriate decision, one that is right for those parents and infant be made.
  • Badger
    Posts: 648
    My apologies for sounding harsh; that was not my intent. As I said in the previous post, I've desperately tried to be civil and expound on a subject that not many here have experienced both sides of this particular topic, but no one seems to pay attention. I did not realize that my posts were full of emotion; I generally try to stick with what facts I know and refrain from vulgarities. If any of you have taken my previous post as lashing out, my apologies again.

    Regarding the claim that the medical industry is unnecessarily circumcising infants, considering the price of malpractice insurance and the eagerness of finding a lawyer to bring a lawsuit, do you honestly think that they would take such a risk without a valid reason? But I will grant you that the modern circumcision is much more 'tight' than the traditional Jewish circumcision, and if circumcisions were done on the 8th day after birth, there would be considerably less complications and trauma on the child.

    For future reference, if anyone wants to know the difference between going from an extra-long foreskin to an extra-tight circumcision, just ask.
  • DeepDeep
    Posts: 78
    Fun fact: circumcised foreskins are used in cosmetic creams for old ladies. Circumcision is big business in America.
  • HelixerHelixer
    Posts: 566
    I don't believe in a conspiracy to sell lube, if there's a conspiracy, which I doubt, perhaps it's to conceal a certain minority group in the USA? Perhaps learning from their past mistakes that if everyone is circumcised then that might act as a better cover than say changing your name from Goldstein to Gould :)

    Sure in the past in primitive cultures I can understand, especially in hot countries how circumcision was the least bad alternative, just like perhaps amputating someone's leg was after injury. Luckily however, modern science has evolved since then. Unfortunately for the religious, religion hasn't.

    A simple rule would suffice: If it ain't broken don't fix it!
  • hulahula
    Posts: 212
    very good post, Churney. I don't know why this subject brings out the rancor. When my wife was pregnant with our first, I went to research the subject, because I wanted my kid to be uncut and everyone at the Lamaze class was telling my wife how much trouble it would be. This wrong information continued at the hospital. But what really got me was the rancor on the different websites -- the internet was much younger then, so it was more like groups and chat rooms than websites, but it was totally out of control with all the flaming. One thing I never realized until years later was that cut guys couldn't slide the skin on the shaft of the penis but had to use a lube to jerk off. If I had been cut, the lube business would have made a few million dollarss when I was in puberty!
  • TipherethTiphereth
    Posts: 146
    Darwin, I agree with you man. It should be our decision wether we become cut or not. The thought of people using my foreskin to make other products repulses me. It's a despicable practise to be worked on helpless male children PERIOD. and I'll argue that until Aneros boots me off the forum or these religious nutcase's god erases my name from his book of so called life that drippes in blood.