Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Sign In with Google

In this Discussion

Lubrication Dangers Update
  • Hey guys!
    Please read this study by the John Hopkins group. I hope this helps in search of the best lubrication!!!!

    http://www.aegis.com/news/catie/2007/CATE-N20070303.html

    Peace!
  • thhn
    Posts: 425
    that's interesting reading... although all products tested are comercially produced. I would be curious to see the tests done with coconut oil or shea butter.
    I don't see how those substances could harm cells in the rectum
  • Badger
    Posts: 656
    Woo Hoo!! My favorite, Slippery Stuff, is the safest! Unfortunately, I'm stuck with a large half-bottle of Probe Thick Rich.

    I wonder how petroleum jelly would fair in such a test? And it would be interesting to see how Coconut Oil and shea butter would do as well.
  • alvalv
    Posts: 179
    products tested are all for water based products, and I as many others use plant based oil products, I personally use organic certified shea butter and organic based coconut oil which waxes, like shea butter, at about 25degree C and wonderful oily at skin temperature with the most fantastic coconut aroma. :D

    My ass gets a culinary treat :)
  • Edited to add external link: Tks for the catch justbasta

    After a couple of weeks searching I think I found the link to the underlying paper:

    < http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?orig_db=PubMed&db=pubmed&cmd=Search&term=Journal%20of%20Infectious%20Diseases%20%5BJour%5D%20AND%20195%5Bvolume%5D%20AND%205%5Bissue%5D%20AND%20703%5Bpage%5D%20AND%202007%5Bpdat%5D >

    < http://tinyurl.com/m3lajk >

    Note that brand names aren't mentioned in this paper.

    nb09
  • alvalv
    Posts: 179

    .... I'd been hesitant to adopt Coconut Oil due to the high concentration of saturated fat. But, I run an HDL of 75 so can probably get away with a few 1/2 teaspoons a week.
    .....
    One other thought crossed my mind as I read justbasta's post. Tap water as an enema is foreign to the bod and might cause the same cell wall disturbances. So, I'm going to add some salt substitute in warm water to approach an isotonic fluid.



    I do not think all the oil is absorbed - I do notice a slight oil film in the toilette next morning after having a good crap.

    and

    concerning salt substitute solution for an enema - be careful you absorb the salt substitutes if not all is expelled
  • Thank you for posting this justbasta. I use "Natural Jelly" myself (search for it on the forum). Best stuff I have ever used for the aneros.
  • alv said:

    . . .concerning salt substitute solution for an enema - be careful you absorb the salt substitutes if not all is expelled



    Which could be problematic if one needs to watch potassium intake as some do.
  • rookrook
    Posts: 1,604
    xhepera said:

    alv said:

    . . .concerning salt substitute solution for an enema - be careful you absorb the salt substitutes if not all is expelled



    Which could be problematic if one needs to watch potassium intake as some do.


    Absolutely, I settled on 1/4 teaspoon in 16oz of warm tap water. Pitch half of that and pour the rest in the syringe bulb. Enuf for two small squirts -- so I'm getting less than 1/8 t. and that's far less than an isotonic solution. Only reason for not using table salt was that our water softener leaves a fair amount of sodium in the tap water.

    Good news is that I seem to have the IBS at bay.

    Potential bad news is the the bottle of Slippery Stuff came in the mail and I'm anxious to give it try.
  • Badger
    Posts: 656

    Potential bad news is the the bottle of Slippery Stuff came in the mail and I'm anxious to give it try.



    Why? The Slippery Stuff is supposed to be the best stuff for your rear.
  • Badger said:


    I wonder how petroleum jelly would fair in such a test?



    What I've understood from general information sources on the net, the biggest difference between petroleum jelly and the lubes mentioned in the article is that the lubes have hydrofilic (collects moisture) components , while petroleum jelly is hydrophobic (repels moisture).

    Now, it could be that introducing hydrophobic compounds to tender membranes is hazardous in some other way - personally I favor pharmacy-grade petroleum jelly as it absolutely won't dry out during a session, and leaves a durable coating on both the massager and the rectal area. This coating is obviously also the biggest downside after the session, as it can be bothersome to gently clean from the skin. I know that the Aneros Wiki recommends water based lubes - hopefully my preference won't lead to any hatin'. :oops:
  • Badger
    Posts: 656
    What is pharmacy-grade petroleum jelly?
  • Badger said:

    What is pharmacy-grade petroleum jelly?



    Sorry, I merely meant the white vaseline that's commonly sold in drug stores.
  • I hate to be a scaremongerer, but I guess one of the rules of the Internet is that if you Google long enough, you'll eventually be scared of everything. :shock:

    Found this site while Googling for customer reviews on ID Glide.

    Here's their data on ID Glide Sensual. Isn't Sensual another version or something? If so, some of the chemicals listed on the page probably aren't a part of the generic Glide.

    In contrast, their page on white petroleum jelly suits me better. The notice on PAHS contamination is probably better explained by this site.. it's why I specifically underlined "pharmacy grade". 8)

    Anyway, I do not mean to rag on anyone else's favored lubricant - it all boils down to duration and level of exposure. We deal with carcinogens daily - sunlight, car exhaust fumes, background radiation, minute traces of heavy metals in just about everything we ingest.. point being, it's likely that just about all lubes are harmless, as long as one doesn't start emptying the entire tube into their cavities every morning. It's all about moderation. :wink:
  • helixbill
    Posts: 148
    I have been using a small amount of petroleum jelly inserted into my anus for over 30 years to prevent hemorrhoids. This was what an Internist MD told me to use after I had a hemorrhoid removed.

    I have started using petroleum jelly on my Aneros to keep it slippery for a longer length of time. Sometimes I use just the petroleum jelly (a very light coating is sufficient) and sometimes I add a coat of Astroglide over the petroleum jelly.

    My wife's OB/GYN told her not to use anything but Astroglide.
  • I am kind of worried over what I have found on shea nut butter after researching it on the net for over two days. (Anyone can find these sites with ease.) It might be fine for external use but internal, I'm not willing to bet my life on. I might use the refined but never the unrefined stuff for anything.

    Someone recommended the Natural Lube on this site and I began investigating the ingredients of it. Most ingredients are all right but this shea butter caught my attention.

    First, it is a NUT plant and anyone with a nut allergy may be allergic to this product. (I'm not so that's “ok” for me.)

    Second, it may have come into contact with latex type B, since one site had a latex warning on the lists of warnings. (“Not ok”, since I am latex sensitive.)

    Third, unrefined shea nut butter is not boiled a second time or even filtered before processed for sale. This makes it possible to have any number of impurities in it from dead skin cells to a host of other things from the natural way it is manufactured.

    These concerns are due to the way it is made by the women of the African villages from which it comes from to all the world. (I'm not being bias here. I don't care what country it might come from actually.)

    (These women work very hard for this product and I do not wish for this to hurt their sales but this must be brought to the attention to all that are using this “unrefined” product for something other than the external uses that it is mainly used for unless used in cooking where hopefully heat can kill “most” things.)

    I have seen the videos of it being made on the internet. I have yet to see them filter the unrefined product through even fine cheese cloth, which might take out things we can see at least. It might be being done elsewhere, I'll give them benefit of the doubt, but it was not shown. Even this filtering does not stop what I fear most.

    The other concern is that the temperatures that this mixture is processed at may not be getting high enough to kill bacteria and other germs that might find their way into the product from all of the “natural handling” of the product. Also once made into an oil, it is usually skimmed “naturally” by a woman dressed normally and having no protective gear for not contaminating the end product. This was true for the video I saw at least.

    I'm mainly concerned about the possibly transfer of DNA type viruses, bacteria and other germs that might not be killed by this level of heat processing or it being contaminated with during the further “natural” processing.

    These women do not wear gloves in the videos I have witnessed on the net. I have never yet seen one glove or protective gown worn or anything of the kind in shea nut butter's production. It is done outside in non-sterile surrounding. These women look very clean but so to most meat processing plants.

    So how safe is unrefined Shea Nut Butter?

    I'm not sure myself with what I have found. Unrefined shea nut butter isn't going to be used by me at least for any purpose. Refined shea nut butter, possibly but I would need to look at it's total processing to be certain and so far I haven't found any videos on that part yet. They all skip this last step in the video of the production. I won't say to use it or not. It is up to the person.

    I also know that the products that are made by large companies have most of the same major flaws as many found in what I saw in the natural production of the unrefined shea nut butter. This also makes me concerned with stuff that is made even.

    It should be remembered that most natural oils that are unrefined or cold pressed are also in this area of suspect.

    I can only hope that most companies adhere to some form of clean room standards in their manufacturing of a product to be used internally like most lubricating agents made for the medical and adult use sector. I know that the food industries don't do this very well as we all see everyday on the news about food and other recalls.

    Well, that's it for me on this subject as a whole. Hope I don't spoil to many people's days with what I found out about shea nut butter so far. I just wanted to inform everyone on what I found on the product as best as I could do it.

    (Helixbill, please look up the MSDS on white petroleum jelly. It is not safe at all. It is a very dangerous product if used for any lenght of time.)
  • ltprvtim said:

    (Helixbill, please look up the MSDS on white petroleum jelly. It is not safe at all. It is a very dangerous product if used for any lenght of time.)



    Not the kind of claim I enjoy reading first thing in the morning. A google search produced a myriad of results - do you have a link handy for reference? :?
  • I read the article in the original link.

    One thing that strikes me is the SIGNIFICANT difference between anal sexual activity and the use of an Aneros.

    The study was really concerned with the use of and subsequent damage due to sexual activity and the use of the lubricants.

    I venture that even the smallest penis provides significantly larger surface area and more potential abrasion than ANY Aneros model, especially given that ANY anal penetration should always be done using a condom. (That just makes reasonable sense, no?) The Aneros is in all cases, smoother, smaller in diameter and far less abusive to anal tissues than any version of penile/anal sexual contact. Unless a guy is really straining and pushing hard or, worse yet, manually manipulating the Aneros, I just can't see how it can result in any type of anal tissue abrasion. Am I wrong? (The only exception to this that I can think of would be in the case of hemorrhoids which could certainly lead to abrasion and even bleeding, which is another case altogether.)

    Personally, I have tried many lubes, and I prefer either Astroglide X or Vasoline. I do not inject anything into my rectum, and find that either of the above mentioned products produce superior lubrication for as long as I am active with my Aneros, with minimal over-lubrication or concurrent "leakage" onto the bed.

    I submit that these newer lubes are far slipperier and require far less of the substance to provide superior lubrication.

    Again, and this is just my personal observation and backed by no scientific research, blowing stuff up your ass before using the Aneros is simply unnecessary and can, given volume and overuse, lead to absorption issues and concurrent problems as described in the wiki.

    In the case of lubrication, IMHO, less is more. Use only as much as you need to sustain smooth action of the Aneros. Clean your colon prior to use, and experiment until you find the level of lubrication that's right for you.

    C
  • slimjm
    Posts: 497
    Knowing that lubrication preferences are just that, very unique for each user, and that safety issues are often raised, here's what I like (three month newbie here) and that seems would be safe (it's really comfortable too).

    Lube (while slightly dilating) the anus with a fingertip of Vaseline (helps protect my inner sphincter from getting irritated from the motion of the Aneros), insert one plain Preparation-H or equivalent generic suppository (it's clean, simple, and they're about 90% cocoa butter and other lubricants assumed intended for rectal use anyway--also very soothing inside as contrasted with water soluble lubricants like KY that perform a big laxative effect on me), then put a thin coating of KY on the Aneros which has been warmed in hot tap water while you're doing all this, just so it's slippery enough to glide in and position itself.

    The Aneros comes out well oily even after prolonged use this way, you don't have to sit on the toilet afterward to dump a wad of KY (and whatever it's brought down with it), and the next morning you'll have the slickest bowel movement you ever saw. Just pass gas "gently" if that arises during the night!
  • rumelrumel
    Posts: 2,265
    (Note : Underlined Text is a Hyper-Link)
    slimjm,

    I would like to take exception to your recommendation about using Preparation H products as a lube. Pleases see 'B Mayfield' s commennts in The REAL question about lube... in the Aneros world.

    I would NOT recommend that you use Preparation H as a lubricant. There has been and continues to be much discussion on this Forum regarding types, efficacy and safety of various employed lubricants. Preparation H is not intended to be used in the rectum, it is a topical application designed to shrink swollen hemorrhoidal tissue when it protrudes outside the anal opening. It contains numerous chemical constituents whose toxicity through long term usage when absorbed through the rectal lining are not documented. It also contains a topical anesthetic which will have the effect of dulling the sensations you might otherwise feel while using your massager. You may be limiting yourself from achieving your highest level of sensations if you are anesthetizing your prostate, anus and rectum!

    With regard to use of Preparation H suppositories, please read the cautionary notices. This product is considered to be a medication for hemorrhoidal conditions, not a personal lubricant intended for regular, ongoing usage. The label recommends stopping usage after 7 days.

    There are many other effective lubrications you may employ that do not have the drawbacks of Preparation H, please opt to use one of them, so you can enjoy an even more intense ride. Whatever compound you ultimately use, if the label reads "FOR EXTERNAL USE ONLY" you should think long and hard about using it in your rectum! From the WIKI - "Introducing any chemical compounds into your rectum has inherent risks of toxicity. Please remember your rectum’s lining is a very permeable membrane allowing chemicals to pass directly into your bloodstream, which is why medical suppositories are so effective. You certainly do not want to inadvertently poison yourself, be safe and only use personal lubricants specifically permitted for internal use. Most veteran users recommend use of water based lubrication, with the simplest chemical formulation possible." I suggest you re-read the Lubrication section in the WIKI for guidance.
  • These are the links you requested Rod of Plastic.

    http://www.health-report.co.uk/petroleum_petrolatum_health_concerns.htm

    http://www.cosmeticsdatabase.com/ingredient.php?ingred06=706976&key=37687921&nothanks=1

    Both of these tell some of the facts but the main factor about any petrolatum product to consider is what parent product is this new product made from.

    In the case of white petrolatum jelly either USP or otherwise is the factor that it is made from the base petrolatum which is a hydrocarbon and is a known cancer causing agent and high health risk product.

    For me the answer on any petrolatum based product is clear due to my chemical injury that left me disabled for life. (It was from a petrolatum based chemical compound that was not supposed to be harmful unless direct contact was made with the product. The fumes however were what go me even though I was in the next building.) I'm over being angry about it now, and I just want all informed on what these products do even in the smallest exposures.

    Back to what I was saying, I do not just look at the product's MSDS that is out. This is because it will tell you very little about the product since no major testing is usually required or if any, the results are kept hidden under the trade secret act.

    When I looked up white petrolatum jelly USP, made for medical use, it states very little about the true nature of the product. So instead I look at the patent on what goes into the product. In this case the main ingredient in the white petrolatum jelly USP is mineral oil. Mineral oil has its own MSDS and has very little on it also, but it does have the fact that it is a petrolatum product as well. This lead me to how mineral oil was made and so on. In the end I found that mineral oil is a by-product of cracking crude oil in the manufacture of gasoline among other things.

    So the start product is crude oil which we are only finding out now is very dangerous to even be around. Once "cracked" it becomes even more dangerous and the products that are made have their MSDS's guarded by the major companies that manufacture the products since it is in their best interest to tell the public as little as possible on the hazards or toxic results of being around those products. Due to these factors you can only find out true information from military and government MSDS databases that are kept out of the standard person's ability to access. I know this for a fact since I worked at one of the places that made the MSDS's for the military and corporate sector. I saw countless times how one MSDS would read one thing for the government and military and yet the private sector's had little or no information on the substances.

    Truth is the base for White Petrolatum Jelly USP is a hydrocarbon and all hydrocarbons are dangerous to the health of anything living.

    Hope this helps some.
  • Badger
    Posts: 656
    I don't see what's so terrible about petroleum jelly. According to its MSDS, it's not very flammable, it can be a mild irritant, it can cause diarrhea if too much is ingested, it is NOT known to be carcinogenic, and it does NOT seem to have any mutinogenic nor reproductive side effects. It does, however, have occlusive, or water-loss blocking properties. In other words, it is not absorbed through the skin or pores and slows down the absorption of water through the skin. Physicians throughout the years have and still prescribe petroleum jelly to be rubbed in the anus to lubricate it before a bowel movement to reduce the strain on hemorrhoids and anal fissures. Here's the MSDS:

    http://www.bmed.mcgill.ca/REKLAB/manual/MSDS/Materials%20List/petroleum_jelly.pdf

    And for what it's worth, Robert Chesebrough, the man who discovered petroleum jelly in the 1860's, ate a spoonful a day until he died at the age of 96 years old.

    P.S. I copied this from a similar post I made elsewhere, and updated it.
  • slimjm
    Posts: 497
    rumel,

    Thanks for your insights into Preparation-H usage. I have Aneros sessions only about 3 times a week and was already using the Preparation-H suppositories (usually a half suppository at the time) about that often anyway to help prevent hemorrhoid flare-ups (had a negative colonoscopy and everything already). Just connected the dots to do both simultaneously which seemed comfortable to me so far, but you are correct. The various cream or ointment based Preparation-H products such as contain hydrocortisone and anesthetic agents are intended for external use only. The suppositories don't contain those agents to my knowledge, are almost 90% cocoa butter, are designed/intended for rectal insertion, and have no labeling restriction as to length of usage, only that no more than 4 a day are used (and I'm only using a half about 3 times a week). For me--as a newbie at least--that's been far more comfortable than KY or even the non-glycerin containing water soluble lubricants (due to irritation and laxative effect), but I'm definitely open to anything that would be better. Thanks, slimjm.
  • slimjm
    Posts: 497
    By way of follow-up, thanks to rumel for PM'ing me with the Natural Jelly recipe. Familiarity with using Preparation-H suppositories on an occasional basis over the years to prevent hemorrhoidal flare-ups and observing that recent sessions were much more comfortable when I'd done so was all that led me to raise this thought in view of the concerns expressed about various lubricants. I would think that excessive or prolonged usage outside the manufacturers' recommendations for any product, even those medically approved for rectal use, should not be considered, especially if undiagnosed rectal symptoms are present. The observations I shared were only that, and not necessarily intended to be a recommendation for others.
  • Love_isLove_is
    Posts: 1,672
    Hello ltprvtim, :)

    I think you will find a large range of opinions and beliefs here in what is a good and safe anal/rectal lubricant to use. And here I will state my own opinions and beliefs. :D I certainly can understand your point of view considering your experiences. I also personally don't believe that petroleum based lube is all that safe. But with the intention not to create drama or arguments, if we disregard any nut allergies issues, the rest of your issues with shea butter are typical over sterile and hygienic western society beliefs.

    In light of that, I think it is a good idea to compare these issues you have with shea butter with food items that you eat. There are many items of food that have naturally occuring bacteria on them. Think about fresh fruits and vegetables. They all have naturally occuring bacteria on them, and some that are probably brought over in small amounts from animals and insects. And if you buy conventional produce, you'll get toxic pesticides and synthetic petroleum based fertilizers on them and in them. Any refined, processed, and not naturally grown food often has chemicals in it we would not normally ingest, for flavoring, color, and preservation. Any meal you or someone else cooks for you is going to have dead skin cells in it, foreign bacteria, probably an occasional hair or two, and cooked in a non-sterile environment. If we as humans ingested only sterile foods, as in canned, processed, and refined. We would be very ill indeed. And indeed that has come to pass, as a lot of modern societies illnesses like heart disease, being way over weight which leads to other health problems, diabetes, cancer, and a whole long list of other health problems are considered to be symptoms of very poor and unhealthy "modern" eating habits and in addition sometimes modern living conditions and environments.

    It's no wonder when Americans often go to other less developed countries that they get ill as their bodies have not built up natural defences in our over sterile environment. Americans and probably other developed countries have become so obsessed with anti-biotic cleaning products and everything needing to be sterile, white, and disinfected that we don't have a lot of immunities to common bugs, and we subject ourselves to poisonous chemicals to achieve it. That's pretty backwards, and took me a lot of years to realize that and step away from that lifestyle.

    A popular TV show called MythBuster's summed it up great:

    The Myth: (in Adam's own words) "The idea behind this myth is the bristles of a wet toothbrush are an ideal collection surface for things like airborne bacteria."

    The Experts:
    Heather Joseph-Witham says that some people believe you shouldn't leave your tooth brush in the bathroom, particularly next to the toilet. Dr. Joanne Engel - Microbiologist from UCSF - tests all of the toothbrushes for Fecal Coliform bacteria

    Action/ Results: Adam builds two toothbrush racks in the bathroom. They hang twenty-four toothbrushes in the racks. Then, every day for a month, Adam and Jamie go in, wash their hands with antibacterial soap, then wet each toothbrush, put toothpaste on each one, then rinse each one out with distilled water. They also leave two toothbrushes in a glass on the top of the toilet, and they actually brush their teeth with those. They also have two toothbrushes that they keep in the office, away from the bathroom. These also get the wetting, toothpaste, rinse treatment. They also keep track of how much business goes on in the bathroom for that month.

    At the end of the month, Dr. Engel comes over and tests each toothbrush for fecal coliform by rubbing them on a Petri dish and in some broth. She incubates the dishes and the test tubes, and then shows the guys that all of the toothbrushes, including the two in the office, had fecal coliform on them. Myth true - fecal coliform bacteria do grow in toothbrush bristles.
    However, when Adam asks if we should be concerned about this, Dr. Engel says no.

    Quotable Moments:
    Jamie: There's poo everywhere!



    :lol:

    Fecal coliform and other bacteria is everywhere in small amounts. That is unless your drinking out of the toilet or swimming in a septic tank. :lol: You can't get away from bacteria and things in your food, that are not strictly the food, even when you buy organic produce. But at least those are natural, and not intentionally sprayed toxic chemicals. And quite frankly our bodies need to work in harmony with bacteria. Hence why it is very good for your intestinal and whole body health to consume naturally raw fermented foods that create loads of lacto-bacillus in the fermentation process.
    http://www.wildfermentation.com/

    Yet most developed countries laws require pasteurization of packaged food. So corporations start churning out sterilized versions of all these naturally fermented foods that removes all the healthy and helpful bacteria in it. So I'm going to have to disagree with your fears of the supposed health problems of how shea butter is made. As we are already subjected to the same sort of things you are afraid of everyday. You just don't realize it. :D

    Love_is
  • alvalv
    Posts: 179
    Love_is said:

    Hello ltprvtim, :)
    It's no wonder when Americans often go to other less developed countries that they get ill as their bodies have not built up natural defences in our over sterile environment. Americans and probably other developed countries have become so obsessed with anti-biotic cleaning products and everything needing to be sterile, white, and disinfected that we don't have a lot of immunities to common bugs, and we subject ourselves to poisonous chemicals to achieve it. That's pretty backwards, and took me a lot of years to realize that and step away from that lifestyle.

    ....

    Yet most developed countries laws require pasteurization of packaged food. So corporations start churning out sterilized versions of all these naturally fermented foods that removes all the healthy and helpful bacteria in it. So I'm going to have to disagree with your fears of the supposed health problems of how shea butter is made. As we are already subjected to the same sort of things you are afraid of everyday. You just don't realize it. :D

    Love_is



    Bravo !!!