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Quick and Dirty Path to the Super-O
  • Ok, I've now tried to apply the TOW technique with both Progasm and Helix. With Helix, I noticed that a sort of "natural hold/tension" needs to be factored in. In short: Progasm has a more wide stem that also thins less towards the base, which means the sphincter muscles need to apply more force to achieve an inward motion for the massager. But with Helix, the stem is considerably thinner than the head, and also terminates to a very thin base, where the handle/p-tab branch off.

    This means that for me, pushing the massager in or holding it in place with the sphincter muscles requires exceedingly little effort. Noticing this, I didn't try to apply similar force to the both muscle sets, but comparatively more to the rectal ones, which push the massager out. This lead to an increase in pleasure similar to my initial TOW trial with the Progasm.

    What this means that to achieve the optimal TOW tension, the shape of the massager needs to considered, and also the mileage the user has had with the model. Why? Because I think that almost universally when an Aneros model is inserted for the first few times, the rectal muscles are more resistant, more willing to cause involuntary push outwards on the massager. Happened to me with both Helix and Progasm, and also explains why my first few sessions with both models were the most pleasurable ones, before starting to experiment on TOW, that is.
  • slimjm
    Posts: 497
    No apology necessary, Pommie. The frivolity was a welcomed break in this otherwise tedious discussion about "isolating" the PC contractions from anal contractions. I agree Woodsman, I don't think there's a way they can be completely isolated one from the other, but getting familiar with low levels of contraction, mentally focusing on the PC muscle group (as if tightening your bladder sphincter) without so much tightening of your anal sphincter, is the key to getting the Aneros to trigger the best responses. When you think about it, it's the PC muscles that do the contractions in traditional orgasm that are necessary for you to ejaculate, not the anus muscle, though it comes along for the ride as anyone that has put a finger back there when ejaculation was taking place could attest to. Here's something else to try that can help with "isolating" the two areas. Put a couple fingers of one hand on your sweet spot where the P-tab normally contacts and with a finger of your other hand feel your anal sphincter and try doing the PC contraction lightly. You should be able to feel your PC muscle under your sweet spot contract with only mild tightening of your anus. With stronger contractions both areas will contract tightly. As Woodsman pointed out, the low levels of PC contractions necessary for effective Aneros usage are at the range that this relative "isolation" becomes possible.
  • Restorme
    Posts: 7
    I'm glad I decided to check into the forum and read this post. This is really helpful information.. As someone who's struggling, it looks like very helpful, practical advise. I'm enjoying the feeling of the aneros, but patiently waiting for a response. I'll start putting these suggestions into practice.
  • Woodsman
    Posts: 102
    Restorme
    If it had not been for this forum, I probably would have given up on the aneros a few weeks after buying it, because I, along with most of the unenlightened out there, had no way to even imagine what it could do. I am still early on the journey, but even if I never go farther than I am now, it has been totally worth it. Your patience will be rewarded.
  • darwindarwin
    Posts: 1,195
    Note that Cave has just added an addendum to his original post, a tip about tickling your tip.

    To that, let me add this suggestion. Another trick to accelerate things is to contract your cremaster. that is the muscle that pulls your balls up, which is what happens as the first phase of ejaculatory inevitability. if you learn to control that you can give yourself a big nudge by doing it voluntarily, in conjunction with the rest of the proceedings.

    darwin
  • PommiePommie
    Posts: 714
    Again I find myself offering sincere thanks to Cave and to slimjm and others for this thread. What an absolute gem it is.

    Over recent nights I have been putting together the advice given here and have immediately seen the benefits.

    A couple of nights ago, I used the modified Eupho (it has its handle removed), to do some exercises to separate the PC muscles from the anal sphincter group. I will admit that I wasn’t sure at the end of that couple of hours how successful it was, but the proof came the following night.

    The next night I decided to see if I could build on the previous one and it paid off in spades! This time I used the modified Helix (also without its handle). After about half an hour of similar practice to the previous night, I rested for half an hour and then resumed the exercises. Within minutes I found myself in my “near-orgasm zone”, (NOZ). I could hardly believe that I was able to stay in that zone continuously for the next hour and a half. During that time I experienced at least a dozen and possibly fifteen anal orgasms (mini-Os). During the first of these, I had involuntary spasms of the entire pelvic region that continued for at least three or four minutes. I admit that the remaining orgasms were not quite as strong but was amazed that they just kept coming. During the first half hour, I was lying on my right side. I then rolled over onto my back, (a manoeuvre which usually breaks the cycle). This gave me the freedom to try some nipple stimulation. That added to the process and ensured that I stayed in the NOZ. I then rolled over onto my left side and stayed in the NOZ, enjoying another half dozen anal orgasms. After that, I rolled back onto my back but mistress Helix was not done with me yet. I had one more orgasm before having the strength of will to call a halt to the proceedings lest I should collapse from fatigue! I call to mind BF Mayfields description of his first forays into Super-O territory.

    I’m not sure how it could get better than this. For the present though, I am perfectly happy to enjoy this level of pleasure.

    Pommie
  • strongone
    Posts: 8
    CaveOfMystery......Fantastic advice! Your spot on! I followed your advice step by step and BAM I was able to with some practice create the rolling sequence of contracting the sphincter first then the pc muscle. Man....incredible. I was able to enjoy those powerful waves of pleasure, so intense, back to back as I was finally in THE ZONE! Thanks CaveOfMystery for unlocking the mystery for me!
  • tallguy
    Posts: 57
    [QUOTE=slimjm;89018]...eventually, holding these PC contractions with the Aneros in place will trigger a fatigue-like induced spasm or quivering of the external anal sphincter muscle, and with time and practice, the result of holding the PC contraction while the quivering is going on will be an involuntary sucking in of the massager into the rectum, not you voluntarily contracting your anus to pull it in. During this involuntary sucking in process, your rectum will involuntarily contract (you won't be pushing down voluntarily to do it) and it will feel like the massager is being clamped against your prostate and rubbing it (as with the larger massagers) or tickling it (as with the Eupho, my favorite).

    When you reach this stage in the training process, orgasms occurring during sessions are not far away.

    Well, I sure hope so, slimjm, because that's just where I'm at now in my rewiring journey, which thankfully only started several weeks ago. As eloquent and invaluable as Cave's post is, I am also truly impressed slimjm with your ability to even more clearly articulate the action of these muscle groups. As soon as I read Cave's post, like Strongone I was "rolling" along beautifully (although I'm a bit embarrassed to admit that, for whatever reason, it's much more natural for me to "roll from PC to anal" than vice versa...same effect, though). Then, in the last two nights, as p-waves (or anal mini-O's? Who cares!) were hitting me, I felt the absolutely delicious "clamping" of the MGX against the prostate that you described. It felt SO MUCH BETTER than the prostate contact that I'd previously "cheaply obtained" by anal contractions alone or by sitting up straight in bed to feel the massager pushed hard against my prostate.

    Thanks, Cave and slimjm, for adding to the "canon of the greats" on this forum and helping bring new clarity for those of us wandering along on our journey.

    And thanks Pommie for the "beans and beer" post. I was reading through it quite seriously and when I (duh) got the joke, and had the best, longest laugh I've had in ages...frankly, almost as satisfying as a p-wave!

    Tallguy
  • Cave - Thanks for this insightful post. I was able to produce the flutter you spoke about - this is great!!

    Question to everyone: Whenever I start to get any "excitement" back there, my penis starts to get erect (this can also feel very good). Once this happens I lose my ability to feel or "hold the imbalance" of the contractions. Does anyone else experience this? Any suggestions? I would say I get pleasurable sensations but they seem the most intense when I get an erection - once this happens though I cannot hold the intensity.
  • [QUOTE=wintermute007;88852]Great post. Full of really good advice. I find the
    section on the muscle exercises to be very
    informative. Those exercises are something
    I can do almost any where which is great.
    I think to start this process I will try to contract
    the different muscles while taking a leak to provide
    myself with good feedback as to whether I'm
    doing it right. I guess I'll be drinking a lot of
    water from now on. Lol!

    You should not be doing kegel exercises while urinating. Stopping urination is only for those unfamiliar with kegels so that they can more easily locate their pc muscles.
  • Vinestal
    Posts: 48
    Hi guys Ive not yet been an Aneros user for more than a month, I wanted to post a reply to this thread as its been the single most helpful post on these boards. For years Ive been doing Kegel exercises so I have a pretty strong base there, but Id never thought about separating it from the sphincter muscles. Ive been able to separate these muscles fairly well. The sphincter muscles for me have been quite easy for me to separate from the PC group, but PC contractions almost always involve some sphincter movement although with really light contractions of the PC there is very little sphincter movement involved. Ive been doing these back and forth contractions in the car while at work sometimes and have had some great involuntary spasms while doing those exercises. My last session was my best by far I had spasms that started as anal and then rolled into my penis as I rolled the sphincter contractions into strong PC contractions. The feelings that followed teetering on the brink of orgasm lasted for I dont know how long but were just as appealing to me as any traditional penile orgasm. I recently received my progasm and helix models (Ive been using the MGX) in the mail and I cant wait to try them (on my resting period). Anyways Thanks Cave for this most awesome post!
  • Cave of Mystery, love your post! Strongone
  • Linghaman
    Posts: 231
    Outstanding entry!!!!! Very methodical and thorough. The only thing I could add is that we are all different and our bodies respond differently. That means that you have to experiment. The advice that I recieved here was fantastic but it was only part of the solution. The other part of the solution to achieve super o's (for my body) I discovered myself thru experimentation. What worked for me may not work for you, you have to discover your own path.

    The two things that did it for me were my nipples and frenulum. The more sensitized to my body I became and closer to getting rewired the more sensitive my nipples became. Teasing them intermittantly and with a very light touch sent zings straight to my prostate; the tingling spasm of pleasure was amazing. The other thing is pressure on my frenulum, the cleft under my cockhead produces immediate pleasure and orgasmic spasms. I read that frenuli are sensitive more to pressure and heat than friction. So I laid flat on the bed and pressed my cockhead gently against the mattress; the softer the mattress the better. My wifes ass cleft is even more amazing for producing results for me.

    The point is conventional advice says don't touch your penis. For me touching my penis is what I have to do to get there. I discovered that on my own.

    bigguy
  • madmick
    Posts: 58
    I've been trying to memorize what you've said.
    I've had two super 'o's so to speak.
    Yes it's just rhythm, but looking at a screen or indeed a print out when your doing sorta
    intimate things to yourself can sorta be a let down or a damp squib.
    Hopefully i'll be lauding you later cave of mystery...
    You certainly put some time and thought into your post.
    Thank you.
    Mick
  • madmick
    Posts: 58
    I've been trying to memorize what you've said.
    I've had two super 'o's so to speak.
    Yes it's just rhythm, but looking at a screen or indeed a print out when your doing sorta
    intimate things to yourself can sorta be a let down or a damp squib.
    Hopefully i'll be lauding you later cave of mystery...
    You certainly put some time and thought into your post.
    Thank you.
    Mick
  • wisdom
    Posts: 38
    i'm wondering why this hasn't been made a Sticky yet in the forum.......I always refer back to this thread because it's the best one i've ever read....period!!!!
  • Ænima
    Posts: 3
    Hi Waverider, you mention in this post that you tried all sorts of things including weed... I'm curious, did you find that helped or made a difference? I find you need to be in a sort of meditative state and I'm thinking weed might help with that. Probably not worth doing everytime, but I was planning to give it a go soon.
  • [QUOTE=CaveOfMystery;88879]It takes a little practice, but if you are having trouble isolating them, then try this. Do a full anal contraction, and while holding it, see if you can send signals to contract your PC muscle with very light contractions in rapid succession. The only purpose here is to learn the different sensations each muscle group has. As you do your light PC contractions back off the anal contraction. After awhile you should be able to differentiate between the two, and control them independantly. But the best part is you can practice this skill anytime, anywhere.
    .

    Sorry but this post doesn't help any further if you don't know what the difference between an "anal contraction" and a "PC contraction" is. Explain please?

    IDK, perhaps I subconsciously know the difference because I seemed to be experiencing what you were describing with the muscle fatigue and then the involuntaries around the 45 minute mark, but guess I didn't reach a Super-O because I was trying to help in along with more and more squeezes as opposed to "riding it out" and this probably hindered. But then again we're talking about my first 2 or 3 times and from the sounds of it I had a lot greater success then most do starting out, lol. But now for some reason in subsequent sessions I can't seem to acheive the flutters and shakes again or get the toy moving on it's own...maybe I'm just trying too hard or I'm not able to consciously acheive this "tug o war" between the 2 types of contractions? So...could you please explain the difference more clearly? Thanks.
  • Billy11
    Posts: 280
    Wow, I don't know how I missed this post back when it was originally made. Beautiful! Agree with others here that it would be nice to add this to the sticky's or an easier spot to find considering it seems to be a very useful guide.

    Sensitive Guy-
    I'm not sure what you mean here

    Sorry but this post doesn't help any further if you don't know what the difference between an "anal contraction" and a "PC contraction" is. Explain please?



    Not sure if you read the whole thread but there's several posts there that get into great detail about how to locate and learn to separate these different muscles. The pc contraction is the one that you would use to stop the flow of urine in mid stream while the anal contraction is the one you would use to hold in a fart or BM
  • rumelrumel
    Posts: 2,254
    Billy11,

    FYI, As previously noted, I did add 'CaveOfMystery's post to my posting list in the "Cherry Picks" Community Group. That group was created for the purpose of referencing posts such as this, which don't really merit Sticky thread status yet deserve to be made readily available to the community without becoming lost or buried in the thousands of posts in existence here.

    You are welcome to join the group and add your suggestions for meritorious posts/threads.
  • Billy11
    Posts: 280
    Rumel

    I saw in your post earlier in this thread that you had added it to the Cherry Picks page. But for me at least when I go to the forum home page I would have no idea where to go to find the Cherry Picks unless somehow told me that it was in the groups section and even then you've got some searching to do to find it. I feel especially for someone that is newer to the forum that it's difficult to find these areas on the forum. Since the Cherry Picks group is consisted of nothing but the most helpful well written threads on the forum, I feel it would be much easier to locate if instead it was maybe a sticky in itself called "Cherry Picks. At least then it would be at the very top of a forum page that everybody who visits the forum would see right off the bat.
  • [QUOTE=Billy11;100557]
    Sensitive Guy-
    I'm not sure what you mean here

    Not sure if you read the whole thread but there's several posts there that get into great detail about how to locate and learn to separate these different muscles. The pc contraction is the one that you would use to stop the flow of urine in mid stream while the anal contraction is the one you would use to hold in a fart or BM

    Hmm, to me these seem to be the same muscles...
  • rookrook
    Posts: 1,603
    [QUOTE=sensitiveguy22;100577]Hmm, to me these seem to be the same muscles...Try this:


    Good general reference and roadmap to where the sun seldom shines: -- Perineum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia --

    PC muscle: -- Pubococcygeus muscle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia -- (the first one on your list to isolate on and strengthen...wife or girlfriend can help -- preferably a woman who's delivered at least one baby -- they know the Kegel drill and can coach you.)

    Anal sphincter: -- Sphincter ani externus muscle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia -- (this is where you start the play that will help you isolate on either the sphincter or the PC)

    Cremaster: -- Cremaster muscle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia -- (tuck this one away for future work -- re-learn to bounce your balls)
  • [QUOTE=rook;100582]Try this:

    PC muscle: -- Pubococcygeus muscle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia -- (the first one on your list to isolate on and strengthen...wife or girlfriend can help -- preferably a woman who's delivered at least one baby -- they know the Kegel drill and can coach you.)

    I have no girlfriend, let alone wife, lol...but I do know which the PC muscle is and I've been doing kegel exercises off and on for the past few years now. It's the "anal contractions" that have got me confused...like to me it seems holding in a fart (as billy described) I use the same muscles as I do trying to stop the flow of urine, so idk...
  • movermover
    Posts: 69
    I keep going back to the original post in this thread and love it! Just had to say it...
  • [QUOTE=sensitiveguy22;100586]I have no girlfriend, let alone wife, lol...but I do know which the PC muscle is and I've been doing kegel exercises off and on for the past few years now. It's the "anal contractions" that have got me confused...like to me it seems holding in a fart (as billy described) I use the same muscles as I do trying to stop the flow of urine, so idk...

    It's two different muscle. It really doesn't matter how to control it so long it works as you expect.
  • I'm glad this post helped so many. I had no idea it would have this much impact when I wrote it awhile back.

    I wrote it mainly for the people who buy these plastic gems, use them once and say "It didn't do anything."

    That's like going to the store and buying a box of cake mix, then putting it in the oven expecting a whole cake to appear.

    You've got to finesse it, put in a little work, add some ingredients, etc.

    Generally speaking it isn't an instant gratification kind of thing. Well, maybe it would be with the VIce, maybe I'll find that out someday, but as for the other models, take your time and enjoy.
  • airbagairbag
    Posts: 116
    I wanted to chime in on PC muscle / Kegel exercise. It really does help. I suspect this is why I got such nice initial progress compared to other people. And my recent findings suggest my sweet spot requires contractions at about 70-80% of capacity, which means I really need to work on my kegels daily to be able to sustain them for a hour.
  • I agree with all the previous posts, especially with the fact that this method definitely speeds up your progress with the Aneros. I got my MGX only about two weeks ago, and my initial results were interesting but nothing too major. I didn't mind this because I knew from reading various posts that it can take a while to begin to achieve the kind of pleasure that's been reported. I started the Quick 'n Dirty method last night and made what I feel is a notable leap ahead. I haven't yet reached the dry O stage, but with the right balance between kegel and anal contractions I get incredible pulsing and quivering that makes my legs and arms shudder. It feels like I'm right on the verge. As has been said, I need to work on strengthening these heretofore unused muscles so that I can last longer and eventually reach orgasm and beyond. Looking forward to it. Thank you for this invaluable advice.
  • Caves, sorry I've missed this post. I would have achieved the Super-O a little sooner:) I have gotten there though. i did try the legs "flat out" in shape of a V. Wow. It seems to re-set me into a new and more powerful wave. That was soooooo intense.

    I've actually printed out this thread and put it in my nightstand drawer. LOL.
  • Nettles
    Posts: 20
    I'm kinda new to all this and I've been doing my research, but while going through the wiki, I noticed the link to this thread is broken, along with some others, just thought I'd let you know so you can fix it?
  • Nettles
    Posts: 20
    OK I don't know if I have the words to describe what the heck just happened, but using what I read here, SOMETHING did...
  • stumpy
    Posts: 140
    I just found my super O about 2 weeks ago with the "do nothing" method. However I've found that combining the two methods makes for acceleration of a session. I'll kick back and relax for about 15 minutes until I'm relaxed and then start to get some strong sensations...then slowly contact as you describe and it seems like the affects are stronger and last longer...going straight to this method doesn't feel as powerful and IMHO feels like I miss out on some of the benefits of the relaxation. I'm not saying anyone shouldn't use this method cause it works great...but the relaxation...almost meditation seems too make a difference to me. I think I've found a great middle ground of getting my mind in the right place...then with your advise bringing the body with me.
  • Nettles
    Posts: 20
    [QUOTE=stumpy;47794]...IMHO feels like I miss out on some of the benefits of the relaxation. I'm not saying anyone shouldn't use this method cause it works great...but the relaxation...almost meditation seems too make a difference to me. I think I've found a great middle ground of getting my mind in the right place...then with your advise bringing the body with me.

    Maybe that's why it's titled the Quick and Dirty Path...
  • stumpy
    Posts: 140
    I know...just stressing the importance of relaxation.
  • Nettles
    Posts: 20
    Once again the wiki links are hosed.
  • BigGlansDC
    Posts: 628
    A very interesting and informative thread, I must say.

    What do you mean that once again the wiki links are hosed, Nettles?

    Thom/BigGlansDC
  • Nettles
    Posts: 20
    this thread is referenced in the wiki, and the link to it is now broken making it hard to find, no doubt from yet another site reformat.
  • rumelrumel
    Posts: 2,254
    @ nettles,

    Thanks for pointing out the broken link, I've now corrected it but if you find others please let us ('B Mayfield', 'darwin' or myself) know about it so we can fix them.
    image Good Vibes to You ! image
  • Webbo
    Posts: 6
    Hi everyone this website has come out of nowhere and changed my soul .I achieved a milestone yesterday using this method by accident ( I read the post after ) .. After 8 days of use with some success but always enjoyment I was getting a bit hung up over whether or not the P-tab was hitting the spot .I had a few hours to kill so simply lubed up inserted and just decided to go with whatever whenever and have no expectations only Analise. lol Almost straight away I was feeling relaxed , a few light squeezes and  P waves came that did not seem forced , nice .Then I was thinking "that feels a bit like the pleasure immediately before a conventional "O" so just held it , it seemed so easy , then realized I was holding my breath so I started to breathe deeply and on the out breath , I concentrated on breathing out through my lower abdomen then Bang .Full out of control head bent back , three foot off the bed groaning , swearing pleasure that probably lasted 35 seconds , completely out of the blue! Wow what the f**k was that , Relaxed for a few minutes , little squeeze  P waves as before , remember to breath Bang total mind blowing pleasure .I was so stoked I thought i would stop while ahead as it was so unexpected and a shock . After wandering about in a daze subconsciously feeling my nips  I remembered I was supposed to be trying to find my sweet spot , so popped it back in  to pay more attention and Bang again . I cannot remember what I was doing during my zoned out time as  body took over . The only prerequisite was  that I started with no expectations  . Later that night after too many beers out I couldn't resist trying again in the name of science !! Same results although alcohol mellowed . I just have a big smile now and maybe it will happen again soon . I tried again yesterday but my muscles are so sore only had a few nice P-waves but I didn't care because I know what is there and I've got no expectations still( I hope )!. Thanks to all the poster's on here for your invaluable advice and I think my sweet spot was there all the time . Cheers Webbo
    :-h :-h
    PS I was at best semi erect at all times , and lots of pre , also I used to be a bit hung up on my lack of erection when object in bum but as others have stated it "feels hard" when it isn't , a strange concept .Also I do remember exhibiting all the symptoms of a female "O" , telling myself don't stop etc . Would have made a funny vid
    :))
  • Must be nice.  I'm about to give up on all this...


    :(
  • Webbo
    Posts: 6
    Don't give up mate . I;ll probably get hung up on the "been there can't get back " thread , that's just me . Just have no expectations , I've been lucky in the respect that I am on my own for a month working abroad with lots of free time and privacy in which to experiment . I am also guilty in overdoing it , sometimes 3 times a day !!!! But it always feels good just doing the relaxation so no harm done . What was weird was I did everything wrong and got there through not trying too hard . Strangely though I'm in no rush to return for a while ? Keep the faith it's in there somewhere . Cheers Webbo
  • Yeah mate, it'll never happen if you give up. It took me a near good six months for my first Super O and I was one that was incredibly skeptical. Just enjoy what you've got going now and the rest will follow through on it's own time. Everyone's body is different so no two people react exactly the same. Give it time and relax and keep your mind open to whatever may happen :)
  • It's hard to think about spending one to two hours a session for 6 months to a year or more with no guarantee of results.  I wonder how many have spent that much time and still gotten nothing.  They probably wouldn't post on this site, so we're not likely to know how many have experienced this.
  • I've been at it over a year and still no Super-O. I've had wonderful experices, Super-T, HFWO, and miniOs, but not the mind bending full body orgasm that is described. I still thoroughly enjoy my sessions and will continue my practice even if the Super O is never realized.
  • At least you are getting SuperTs, HFWO, and miniOs.  Me?   Not so much.
  • Using this method I finally had a Super-O, three in fact, truly an amazing product, and truly amazing tips.  I can't wait to ride again.
  • Excellent article and it really helped me to have a real first prolonged Super-O after years of stuttering along trying to get there so thanks a stack. (Smiling inside)
    I think the journey is so different for everyone - but the thing that really helped me at least was the emphasis on training and exercising the muscles first that helped build up some pleasure, anticipation and mental preparation - as you said: "
    it's a paintbrush designed for skillful manipulation in the "hands" of an artist." For me - that really helps get the process into the right perspective.
    Thanks again.

  • Since following this initial advice I keep expanding what it is I know as the Super-O, calm seas, constant pleasure, unlike Cave, I just don't have the words.
  • I have just discovered this wonderful thread. It is mind-blowing. The suggestions and ideas have excited me so much. I have always been aware of the difference between PC and Anus muscles but never thought about it. I realise now that I have been unbeknown to myself, doing this separation all the time. Earlier I learned to "roll" between the two. I have exercised this by contracting rapidly, the upper end of the PC, almost like an ejaculation. It is independent from the anus muscle. I then alternate the two for a minute or two. 

    There is one other exercise which may be of interest and that is tensing the abs muscles as though pushing out and at the same time doing the alternates. Thus I find that when the p-waves begin, I can adjust the balance between the two and get that awesome "inbetween" tickle that draws the anus in. Combine that with a slight tummy thrust and it does seem to deliver some splendid results. Thank for the excellent comments and advice and for the openess and honesty of the writings.