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Dan Savage on male tantric orgasms
  • In his latest podcast, sex advice columnist Dan Savage answered a caller's question about male tantric orgasms. The discussion comes about 10-15 minutes into podcast #117 at this link:
    http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/SavageLove

    Normally I like Dan Savage, but I think he kind of missed the boat on this one. He starts off by poo pooing the idea as a bunch of New Age hooey (which I tend to agree with), then he dismisses those who pursue extending their orgasms as a bunch of braggarts.

    What do you think? I think Dan should have directed the caller to this forum!
  • rumelrumel
    Posts: 2,254
    matt1008,
    I listened to Mr. Savage’s dismissal of Tantric practices and can only conclude it is his opinion. Just remember opinions are like assholes, we all have one and we think ours don’t smell but everybody else’s stinks. Your opinion is every bit as valid as his, he just has the advantage of broadcast access to air his. I think this Forum has many posts from both men and women with equally valid opinions as well.
    It may very well be that Mr. Savage is unaware of this site or the anecdotal evidence supporting Tantric practices. In either case it is his loss, perhaps you could be the one to enlighten him. Tantric teaching is not New Age hooey, it is thousands of years old, pre-dating Christianity. Practioners of Tantric teaching are probably no more prone to braggadocio than the general public, so that is a spurious comment on his part.
  • Linghaman
    Posts: 231
    I am amazed how many "knowledgeable" people in sex research and sex work have no idea that this ability exists. I have talked to men and women about multiple non ejaculatory - prostate orgasm and many look at me like I have two heads. . . I guess I do.
  • B MayfieldB Mayfield
    Posts: 2,077
    First, I have to say that I enjoyed reading Dan's Savage Love column for grins back in the 90's when it appeared in the L.A. Weekly. No question, he can be very entertaining. His pieces have humor, wit, attitude and some honest to goodness information as well. I would also add that I had great respect for him recently when he publicly took on the Mormon church (on CNBC) for their sponsorship of the anti-gay initiative here in California.

    Regarding his dismissal of Tantra, I must say that I'm not surprised in the least. The fact is that I've heard this time and time again from many otherwise knowledgeable gay men. The truth is that when it comes to MMO, many gay men are just as benighted as the majority of straight guys out there. I've hinted at this recently in several threads that discussed gays and anal play. The assumption here (with this group) as elsewhere is that the totality of the male sexual response is essentially limited to what is known from adolescence.

    As with so many of life's mysteries....you don't know.... what you don't know! I'm happy to say that attitudes on this are changing due in no small part to the Aneros and the Male G-spot revolution that it has spawned.




    BF Mayfield
  • MyTurn
    Posts: 447
    How can a gay man not know about prostate orgams, super Os, multiples, waves, non-ejac orgasms, etc? If this Dan is gay, then his ignorance even more surprising.

    Before I download this clip, was this penis-focused or penis/prostate/perineum-encompassing?

    Does Dan believe in female tantra? Why?
  • mog
    Posts: 149
    My first hearing of Dan Savage.

    Not impressed! ....there's none so blind as won't see!

    Mog
  • BigE
    Posts: 45
    I've been spending some time recently studying the deeper, philosophic and spiritual aspects of Tantra. Of course the west has latched on to the sexual component of Tantra and has put a new age bent on the rest. Listening to Savage he was primarily speaking against the dogmatic opposition to ejaculation that has been associated with tantra and taoist systems. In this regard I agree with him. There are lots of men out there beating themselves up whenever they cum. Yes, orgasm and ejaculation are separate, yes there is a tremendous feeling of bliss and perhaps even spiritual awakening when you can do it. However ejaculating is a natural bodily function, that in my opinion needs to happen every now and again. I have a hard time buying into dogma in general and a harder time buying into dogma that goes against the natural course of bodily functions. I like to practice a more balanced way, if the mood and time is there to enjoy multiple orgasms (penis stimulation for this discussion) thats great. If you happen to give it one stroke too much and cum, thats great too. If you've gone for several days, weeks or months without ejaculating and your body lets go because it needs to, thats great too. Don't beat yourself up with guilt over it.

    As for tantra itself, its a very rich system of teaching with some very deep roots. It has so much to say about man's place in the universe and how we interact with it. Tantra is way beyond sex and the stuff you read in the average "tantra" book you see on Amazon. Anyway, that's a discussion for another time, I've ranted long enough :)
  • B MayfieldB Mayfield
    Posts: 2,077
    BigE said:

    I've been spending some time recently studying the deeper, philosophic and spiritual aspects of Tantra. Of course the west has latched on to the sexual component of Tantra and has put a new age bent on the rest. Listening to Savage he was primarily speaking against the dogmatic opposition to ejaculation that has been associated with tantra and taoist systems. In this regard I agree with him. There are lots of men out there beating themselves up whenever they cum. Yes, orgasm and ejaculation are separate, yes there is a tremendous feeling of bliss and perhaps even spiritual awakening when you can do it. However ejaculating is a natural bodily function, that in my opinion needs to happen every now and again. I have a hard time buying into dogma in general and a harder time buying into dogma that goes against the natural course of bodily functions. I like to practice a more balanced way, if the mood and time is there to enjoy multiple orgasms (penis stimulation for this discussion) thats great. If you happen to give it one stroke too much and cum, thats great too. If you've gone for several days, weeks or months without ejaculating and your body lets go because it needs to, thats great too. Don't beat yourself up with guilt over it.

    As for tantra itself, its a very rich system of teaching with some very deep roots. It has so much to say about man's place in the universe and how we interact with it. Tantra is way beyond sex and the stuff you read in the average "tantra" book you see on Amazon. Anyway, that's a discussion for another time, I've ranted long enough :)




    Excellent response BigE, and I concur with you on the value of a good ejaculation now and then.

    With respect Dan Savage's assessment on "Tantric Sex" I think that he takes it a bit farther than his condemnation of the practice of retaining ejaculate. While he did focus on the technique of stopping ejaculation (popularized in the Daoist tradition), his attitude is one that is very typical of many men.. gay and straight alike. Namely (and I'm paraphrasing) that he doesn't feel like anyone should have to work that hard for an orgasm. He's satisfied with his two minute ejaculatory experience...allowing himself time for other things in life....like "reading a book".

    It's unfortunate because he said nothing about the various other methods of achieving non-ejaculatory bliss (including KSMO and the Aneros). Perhaps he is unaware? Then again, his opening statement on the subject might offer some explanation. He was very quick to mention the condescending attitude that he's encountered from MMO devotees. No question, one's opinion about new concepts very often has as much to do with manner of presentation as the subject matter itself.

    (It would do us well to remember this as we all try to spread the word about the Super O.)

    Hopefully at some time in the not to distant future Mr. Savage will be engaged by someone that he respects and cares about. A person whose feelings and opinions he values. Presumably such an individual might be able to pique his curiosity sufficiently for him to consider exploring this realm for himself.

    Until then... may his way be as pleasant.


    BF Mayfield
  • Pan
    Posts: 249
    I just listened to the audio and the Tantric conversation runs from minutes 7 through 12.

    I've seen Dan speak a few times on CNN and Bill Maher's show over the years and I always thought he was pretty cool. But I feel like I just met "the real" Dan Savage, and I'm disappointed to say the least. I can understand being unaware of various aspects of MMO practice, but let's face it, his comments were just plain crude, juvenile, and ignorant.

    I mean, if he genuinely prefers reading the The New York Times over having sex, how did he end up becoming a sex therapist in the first place?!

    :?

    My favorite part was his little Freudian slip about how "any reasonable person" would be jealous of someone who enjoys 8 hour orgasms, and then trying to squirm out of the fact that he just admitted that he's either an unreasonable person or jealous of men who have 8 hour orgasms. :lol:
  • mog
    Posts: 149
    Hi Pan,

    Nice comments!

    If the fella had ever had just one two-minute full-body orgasm combined with a first-class heartgasm he would have spoken differently!

    Mog
  • Pan
    Posts: 249
    Thanks mog.

    Hey good point about Dan needing a heartgasm! Maybe the best way to sooth the Savage beast. :P
  • Love_isLove_is
    Posts: 1,672
    So whose going to be the first one to e-mail Dan the Aneros.com link, and the link to this thread?

    [email]mail@savagelove.net[/email]

    :twisted:


    Love_is
  • B MayfieldB Mayfield
    Posts: 2,077
    Terrific responses Pan and all,

    Like I said earlier, although I've heard this kind of thing before, I too was disappointed by the views expressed in this audio program.

    How is it that he became a sex therapist in the first place? Presumably by studying human sexuality from the Western frame of reference. It's unlikely that he's ever explored Tantra or Daoist practices himself (surely he would have said so). In essence, these ideas don't fit his paradigm, so he's excluded them from any serious consideration. Physicians are generally intelligent people (they are certainly well-schooled) but their allopathic paradigm has largely ignored alternative more holistic forms of medicine,( until very recently). I suspect that it's the same kind of thing operating here. It's certainly not a matter of his intellect...he's very sharp guy.

    His exposure to enthusiasts of these traditions have not helped either, their zeal has struck him as being over the top. His characterization of these folks as "New Age" wackos makes that clear. It's possible too that what we were hearing was an instance of style trumping substance. After all, he's known for being an off-the-wall, opinionated kind of guy and this is/was an entertainment program. Would he have had a different take on this on a different day...who knows.

    One thing that I've come to accept is that there are some people who are so content with their own way of doing things that they don't see a need to look further. Such people lack the patience or inclination to get involved with something like Tantra and are generally dismissive of it.

    Granted, as Mog mentioned, a good Super O or heartgasm would likely change that. But trying to get to that point would present one with a Catch 22. As we all know, this is something that cannot be forced. If there was ever one strict requirement to having this kind of experience it's that one must be receptive to learning about it.

    BF Mayfield
  • mog
    Posts: 149
    >Granted, as Mog mentioned, a good Super O or heartgasm would likely change that.......<<br />
    But, on reflection, apart from the impossibility of imparting a mature hyper-orgasm upon a novice, it would be a very cruel thing to contemplate.

    It has taken me, and probably many other practitioners of multi-orgasm, time and lots of practice to train the mind and body, not only to experience the wild sensations, but also to withstand the extremes. Causing one of them to visit an untrained mind would, very likely have a pretty disastrous result!

    Mog
  • Pan
    Posts: 249
    I totally agree mog.

    Tantric-style events like heartgasms are not something that should ever be "done" to someone who is either unwilling or unprepared.

    But then again, I didn't think either of us were seriously suggesting it for Mr. Savage. :wink:
  • mog
    Posts: 149
    >But then again, I didn't think either of us were seriously suggesting it for Mr. Savage<<br />
    Correct - well I wasn't!

    I think that nothing worse than.....er.....maybe a jammed zip is appropriate in his case.

    Mog