Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Sign In with Google

In this Discussion

aneros and BPH and pain
  • darwindarwin
    Posts: 1,196
    sometimes guys on here say that the aneros has helped relieve their BPH symptoms. and that is a big claim on the HIH site.

    but does anybody have an explanation for why this would be? BPH symptoms result from an increased prostate. why would massage address that? it can't shrink the tissue. my urologist dismissed the idea.

    also, HIH claims that the aneros can help relieve chronic pain, but i find the exact opposite, that it causes pain flare-ups (if you have pre-existing pain issues)

    anybody have thoughts on that?

    darwin
  • ten_s_nutten_s_nut
    Posts: 819
    Darwin,

    Sorry to hear you're experiencing prostate discomfort. I had periodic dull pain randomly, slow pee, and then sharp pain regularly after sex for about two years. My doctor checked things out and said I had a mild case of BPH typical for my age, but no infection. He wanted to write a prescription. I asked him about alternative treatments and he mentioned at least three, including massage, herbs and dietary modifications. I forgot the rest of what he said.

    Obviously, I found HIH and tried massage. I also modified my diet. After a month of daily Helix use, all symptoms of BPH were gone, except the slow pee, which was improved. And, possibly related, my hemorrhoids (Stage 2) were gone. I had a full medical exam for insurance coverage a month ago and everything was OK, no increase in BPH. Now, four months down the road with this program, urination is normal.

    All of the above is purely anecdotal evidence. I'm not aware of any scientific basis for the improvements I experienced. Perhaps diet played the leading role, who knows?

    One thing is for sure: Aneros revved up my sex life substantially. That's a fact, and I have a witness.

    Best Regards,

    Dave

    PS.

    My daily meds are vitamins, aspirin, allopurinol (for Gout), caffeine and alcohol.

    D.
  • rumelrumel
    Posts: 2,265
    darwin,

    I'm also sorry to hear about your recent pain flareup issues, but you raise an important qualifier for your situation - "...you have pre-existing pain issues" It seems to me quite possible that stimulation or massage might exacerbate a chronic nerve condition, akin to those people who experience pain sensations from simple touching of their skin.

    Have you and your urologist read the ongoing Columbia Medical School study using the Pro-State massagers and testimonials from users regarding their experiences? It is possible there is a placebo effect associated with use of those massagers in the study but the results seem to support the concept that a prostate gently stimulated and massaged on a regular basis does promote overall prostate health and aids in the reduction of symptomatic pain associated with BPH.

    From personal experience, I have noticed that urinary flow has been facilitated and hemorrhoidal flareups reduced by use of these massagers. I suspect this result may largely be due to the exercise of the pelvic floor muscles which massager use induces. Increased muscle tone and stamina can only help to maintain a healthy prostate.
  • darwindarwin
    Posts: 1,196
    Guys, thanks for your responses.

    ten_s_nut, glad to hear about your improvement.

    rumel, thanks for the link to that paper. i don't think it really supplies more than anecdotal evidence, owing to the methods used (no placebo), being retrospective, and that one of the authors is affiliated with HIH.

    the main question i have is HOW would massage improve BPH symptoms? if the problem is enlargement, then i don't see how massaging would improve that.

    i can clearly see how the device can help if the need is for better blood flow and muscle tone (hemerhoids and sexual function). and it can possibly see that better blood flow could help reduce inflammation.

    darwin
  • rookrook
    Posts: 1,604
    My up-front opinions regarding to Darwin's thoughts pretty much parallel the remarks of Ten-S-Nut and Rumel. I've blogged a more detailed version of my massage routine should anyone desire details and the rationale behind it.

    1. My experience is quite similar to that of Rumel and Ten_s_nut but I'm not seeing a decrease in prostate volume. There are two differences. First, Ten has frequent partnered sessions and I would infer that he probably meets the typical Urological recommendation for >20 unimpeded ejaculations per month. He also started massage at an earlier point in life and young studs generally have greater healing powers than old horses grazing in pasture.

    2. I do medicate, using a very small amount of alfa-blocker and occasional Saw Palmatto. I consider each dose of Saw with a view to the needs of my prostate, how my 'roids are doing, how thin my blood is and whether I've had a keen sense of PONR when edging. Oh yes, a properly lubed Aneros session always helps tame my 'roids.

    3. With prior exisiting pathology and prostatis, I think any massage program should be occasionally reviewed by a Board- certified Urologist. (yet one that doesn't discard alternative approaches out of hand.) I'm lucky in that both my pri-care and Uro docs exercise both Western and Eastern protocols in their treatment of patients. My Uro, now in private surgical practice, was Chief of Service at a large teaching hospital. My pri-care doc specializes in Internal Medicine for Geriatric patients and is also a certified acupuncturist. Both accept my Aneros practices and are satisfied with my physical outcomes as well as my mental attitude!

    4. Why is massage good? I think having a good massage program or meeting the Urological target of >20 clean ejacs a month keeps the musculature supple, promotes fluid production, promotes oxygenation and nutrition from good blood flow. I don't know if stagnant blood in the prostate contributes to fibrosis as it does in the penis, but I figure that careful massage can't hurt -- and since aggressive massage has been part of the stock in trade of Urological practice, I subscribe to the HIH protocol.

    5. The HIH protocol can be found at: -- Prostate Massage Prostate Massager Prostatitis BPH Treatment Prostate Massage --. I don't massage as often as HIH asks and only spend half the minutes per month that they suggest. But I use small, mid-sized and large Aneros tools to apply pressure cycles to each surface I can reach. In all, I massage for about an hour every ten days while HIH suggests 30 minutes two or three times a week. There is no doubt in my mind that this massage program more than pays it's rent. I gain, probably two hours per week in additional uninterrupted sleep over what I had before I started a formalized massage program.

    If perhaps, I met the HIH guidelines for total hours per month I'd have better results.

    6. As a somewhat related thought. Over the last two decades I've varied between pro and con regarding how Saw Palmetto played in my body. Everyone else in this game has always been 'all pro and no con.' Last year I asked my pri-care doc to assess how Saw Palmetto fit into my overall medication routine. We referred to her copy of the PDR for alternative meds -- Amazon.com: PDR for Herbal Medicines, 4th Edition (9781563636783): Thomson Healthcare: Books -- . Turns out it has a synergistic effect on blood thinners (Plavix and Aspirin in my case) so can help amplify minor razor nicks or bruises. Taken more than twice a week when I've NOT been active with Aneros pleasure sessions it aggrevates my 'roids.

    The PDR also atributes anti-inflamatory qualities to Saw Palmetto. So, if inflamation is an issue with a prostate, it might bode well to get your Uro's opinion on adding Saw Palmetto to your diet. My own experience is that more than a couple of caps per week aggrevate my tendency toward early ejac and make it difficult for to sense PONR. So, I go slow with Saw as early ejac isn't my 'cup of tea.' I'm in a small minority of users who experence early ejac as a side-effect of saw palmetto. this tends to indicate that Saw Palmetto may have some CNS effects in some guys -- the PDR makes no mention of this. YMMV.

    I will dump the rest of my massage routine and rationale in my Blog -- see .

    One final note. I accept my 45 gm prostate as a way of life. It does tend to make things a bit crowded for Progasm. It impedes free ejaculation with I attempt a Super-T with any tool other than SGX, Peridise or Tempo. I am able to accept that limitation.

    hth rook
  • darwindarwin
    Posts: 1,196
    on the topic of prostatitis (ie, chronic pevlic pain), here is a very thorough review article in which my uro is a co-author:

    Management of Men Diagnosed With Chronic Prostatitis/Chronic Pelvic Pain Syndrome Who Have Failed Traditional Management

    darwin
  • artformartform
    Posts: 1,488
    HI darwin!!

    I too am sorry that you are experiencing this chronic pain you have had for some years now and that your aneros practice can cause added pain flare-ups. I came to aneros for both the hands-free prostate massage for all the pleasures and so much more that that can bring, butt I also came for relief from the BPH symptoms I had experienced regularly for some years.

    I do more or less regular BPH "clean-out" sessions every week or so now. I did them every two or three days in my early years here. Having started that regular therapy, I no longer have to get up at night three or four times every night, as before. I can sleep comfortably right through the whole night, and even wake up without urgency in the morning.

    Since getting my blood pressure med changed to a non-ED inducing one (Micardis), I also wake up again with very vigourous morning wood!! My understanding of the mechanism of this treatment in the prostate is this:
    1. in the nature of the prostate's chemistry, there accumulates "spent" and at times misshapen protein molecules, and some crystals as well, that all contribute to the prostate's enlargement and at times discomfort,
    2. the gentle aneros massage apparently breaks up the massing of these debris bits and assists the prostate in expelling this sludge, thereby enabling it to return to a smaller, "normal" size,
    3. so, a BPH therapy session for me is a massage with my Progasm Ice, or Vice, or Maximum and chains of Os of All Sorts... ending in a Super-T to really flush all this out with an ejaculation.

    Hlaser99 and I, and some others I have seen posting about this over the last years or more, refer to this as "cleaning the pipes". That is the term I use around the house here too, and if I have left it a little long and have a more interrupted urine stream with several stops and restarts, mrs. a hears that and knows I need such a BPH session too! She likes to "clean me out" during our sessions together too, and hers are the best massages in this case too!!! Better, truly full stream flows, and longer lasting clean-out!!

    That's my experience and knowledge on this to date.

    I used to get prostatitis every few years before aneros, often deeply infected and requiring two or three months of antibiotics to knock it out. Haven't had any bouts since starting with aneros. I wish you all the best in finding a solution to your very different symptoms profile my friend. All the best.

    artform
  • rookrook
    Posts: 1,604
    [QUOTE=artform;96205]HI darwin!! ... snip
    My understanding of the mechanism of this treatment in the prostate is this:
    1. in the nature of the prostate's chemistry, there accumulates "spent" and at times misshapen protein molecules, and some crystals as well, that all contribute to the prostate's enlargement and at times discomfort,
    artform

    On first reading of the 'Nickel paper' that Darwin posted, I noted that, at some point in time, medical professionals had treated a prostate patient with Allopurinol. The Nickel paper brushed that aside along with other treatments that weren't substantiated by disciplined clinical trials.

    Treatment with Allopurinol tends to indicate that someone detected hyperuricemia.

    Prostate pain from bacterial or fungal infection is pretty easy to explain but inflamation without infection tends to remain a mystery. However, Uric acid crystals do trigger inflamation.

    Artform refered to 'Crystals' in his post. That caused me to reconsider Alopurinol and my own bph history. My first bph complaints (the "I need help" complaint) to my doc, at around age 64, happened within a couple of months of my first Gout attack. From age 28 onward, Flight Surgeons had complained about my Uric Acid levels and I'd ignored those comments since I was ignorant of what it might cause (and of course, in my twenties, I was invincible.)

    When I consider anecdotal comments in the Forum and in Chat, there is an occasional common thread between bph complaints and the incidence of Gout.

    A quick google < gout and bph > dropped a raft of links. Most of those refer to bph as the cause of Gout. I'd think that it might be the other around. High Uric Acid levels, over several years, may be a cause factor in Gout, bph and Prostate pain. (the thought of Uric Acid crystals in the fine tubular structure of the Prostate during ejaculation in a Prostate sensitized by regular pleasuring isn't nice at all. -- I know what they feel like in my big toe, in my ankle and in my little finger -- in my prostate -- No thanks!)

    Consider that during and following ejaculation, the crystals disolve back into the seminal fluid and the evidence is gone.

    However, there are other well proven factors in bph including long term hormonal imbalance (high E2 is suspect),

    Too often bph is dismissed by saying that a guy existed on a Big-Mac diet, allowed his Body Mass Index to rise which in turn caused Testosterone to be arromatized into Estradiol and over the years that caused the bph.

    Instead (or perhaps simultaneously), the Big Mac diet may have raised Uric Acid to high levels, Uric acid crystalized in the prostate and caused tiny areas of inflamation which in turn led to tissue growth and increase in the size of the organ.

    Just musings....
  • ten_s_nutten_s_nut
    Posts: 819
    rook;

    Aha! It could be that my own alleviation of BPH symptoms is due more to allopurinol than anything else. Both the healthy diet and Aneros use might be irrelevant. (I'll maintain those practices in any case since we really don't know squat about the science involved.) I take 100 mg of allopurinol every day for Gout. Funny you mentioned a flight surgeon; mine put me on the stuff.

    Cheers,

    Dave
  • rookrook
    Posts: 1,604
    [QUOTE=ten_s_nut;96211]rook;

    Aha! It could be that my own alleviation of BPH symptoms is due more to allopurinol than anything else. Both the healthy diet and Aneros use might be irrelevant. (I'll maintain those practices in any case since we really don't know squat about the science involved.) I take 100 mg of allopurinol every day for Gout. Funny you mentioned a flight surgeon; mine put me on the stuff.

    Cheers,

    Dave

    Hmmm, tks Dave.

    Very interesting! And, glad to hear that you reversed prostate growth without resorting to Hormone altering meds. Your experience seems to support Dr. Shippen's pitch that Testosterone isn't a bad thing for the Prostate.

    I had never been able to square the 'anti-androgen' crowd with the idea that god (or dame nature) gave us a Prostate and also gave us Testosterone. Seemed to me that the two should play well together.

    I'm able to keep my Uric Acid down to 7.0 mg/dL with just diet and plenty of H2O. So don't need any Allopurinol. Maybe if I hopped up my massage routine (fun stuff) I could start reducing the size of my prostate and do away with the Hytrin. Don't know though if I can hit the target of 22 ejaculations per month that my Uro suggests. Damn, just one tough job after another. No rest! ..... 8-)

    Flight Surgeon: Nice person to buy drinks for and chat with but always remember that inside the bosom is a sleeping serpent and inside the pocket is a pen and a grounding chit. Absolute and infinite power over how you'll spend today and perhaps the rest of your life.

    rook
  • slimjm
    Posts: 497
    I just had mild episodic prostate congestion discomfort (no BPH) associated with less frequent sex when I discovered the Aneros and started using it (successfully) for that. I told my urologist after a year of use (at which point he noticed my gland felt smaller to him than its previously within normal range size) and he thought the effect was due to massage stimulating the gland thus relaxing the tension on the prostatic capsule. Sort of made sense to me as after a good session with pleasing dry orgasms my gland feels as relaxed the next morning as if I'd had good sex with my wife.