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Reply to Celestial (the locked male liberation thread)
  • HelixerHelixer
    Posts: 566
    At the same time we(Aneros Support and myself) want to invite everyone to the recently created groups.
    Philosophy and Screenwriting. (Celestial, please direct your response to the group)
    I didn't get the chance to reply so I think it's only fair....
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    Celestial:


    I can recall a memory from elementary school - 4th grade or so. I felt an attraction toward a girl I knew. Not a sexual attraction mind you, but something. I told my best friend at the time that I really liked her, and I felt nervous about talking to her. At the time, I didn't feel any sort of sex hormones coursing through my blood. My like for another human being was genuine. Perhaps I could of liked a guy just as much, but at that point in my life it just felt like this pure kinda feeling, where nothing else obscured it into something it wasn't. It felt like an attraction to someone who could be an important part of my life.



    Helixer: Just to get this straight, have you ever felt sex hormones coursing thru your blood?
    But yes I recognize this I went thru puberty very early as well, I discovered masturbation around that time without even knowing what it was. Anyways, I recognize this but it was accompagnied with the sex hormones, I obviously didn't feel them coursing thru my blood but in retrospect,the change in attitude towards women and sexual awakening make it clear that was the case.
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    Celestial:

    Fast forward to today. That never panned out, she's now married with two kids, except she lives the life I always seemed to crave deep down, a life of love and family. For me, the joys of life do not cease at the sexual, they extend to life itself, to the experience, to the journey. The power of what you are feeling, this super-orgasm, it may feel like what you have sought all your life. It may indeed be the prize at the end of the rope for many men, a taste of a heavenly existence where there are no problems, only pleasure

    .
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    Helixer: I totally agree, read dtmsmith's thread 'the non-sexual orgasm'
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    C:

    But the greatest of treasures and discoveries are worthless without someone to share it with. And not just any someone, someone with whom I can be close with on an intimate level, just for the sake of it. Just because it feels right. Do I need a deeper reason? There is a certain allure to your way of thinking Helixer. I've gone through the journey of self realization and attained my personal liberation. During that journey, I encountered many philosophies, some of which worked for others, and I can see that every persons journey toward that liberation is different. But my core motivation for improving myself to this point has always been women. I don't think there is a straight man alive who hasn't worked to better himself because of a woman's influence, whether that influence was positive or negative.


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    H: This is where our views diverge. You perhaps picture your soulmate/princess or angel(or some other term women will surely enjoy)walking hand in hand over a moonlit beach on a nice summer evening, walking into the sunset.Feeling the warm waves against your wet bodies while you embrace and look deep into each other's eyes, as if you could read each other's thoughts you both smile at the same time and kiss. The sounds of the seagulls overhead and the ocean surf start to fade away as you become completely engrossed in each other.
    True that's great, but what about the 99,99% of the time?(The stuff I've covered extensively in the male liberation thread).
    The biggest problem however is how you seem to be implying that without a women a straight man wouldn't have any reason to motivate himself or to improve himself. That's blankety blank, to say the very least. As I stated earlier, I attribute this for a large part to societal conditioning, as the advertising companies know, just repeat a message often enough and ppl will believe it. Sure it's useful having all those dependant sexslaves walking around trying to please their missus. Recently in one of the Dutch newspapers, men apparently have more eye for luxurious products if there are sexy women about. Now, if it's all about love, how on earth would something like that develope? Anyway, I believe it's inherent as man as creator to create, it's a complete fabrication(unless of course you believe it)that you depend on a woman to be creative. Just look at some of the music from the Baroque, these guys were spiritual completely devoted to God. You seem to be missing the concept of vocational art. These guys don't work for money, fame or babymakers. They work coz they have a fire burning inside them to do what they do, they have to. IMO this dependancy and craving for validation from a woman you seem to be embracing is more limiting than enhancing. Doing something for the result instead of enjoying the process for what it is IMO isn't a good starting point for anything.
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    C:

    I'm well aware of cannabis and its potential to give deep insight. It's the very reason people get paranoid - they cannot handle the conflicting thoughts that come from such deep thinking. One thing I noticed is that I can convince myself that pretty much anything is the truth. Every argument seems to have its rationale and allure, and may even seem clear and concise. That is why knowledge is useless. Without several of the women in my life, I would still be asleep in a dream state, a state of mere survival and spiritual lethargy. What about your life? Even if every woman who stepped into your life you deemed as a curse, did they not prompt you to higher levels of thinking, new ways of encouraging growth? Over 1 year ago, I felt like a woman had crushed my soul. Yet I always found a way to thank her for what she did, because she awoke the fire in me to continue walking on my journey toward liberation, until here I stand, free from all power of persuasion.


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    H:Although I agree that generally cannabis can cause some paranoia, this is absolutely not the case when combined with the Aneros. I think it's because of the extatic feeling it's hard to get paranoid and it actually enhances the experience.
    Anyway it doesn't work that way, logical thinking doesn't equate to paranoia. Having clear, concise arguments at the very most you could put down to sophistry. This is neither.
    Knowledge is useless??? Now that sounds like one of those 'far out'ideas you'd normally attribute to smoking. I personally don't see myself as a braindead vegetable that's just 'living'.Knowledge is what makes you you, it's the sum of all your life experiences. There's nothing objective about knowledge, thus your knowledge is highly subjective, it is as it were where your consciousness guides you to.
    And how can you talk about liberation when you're so dependant on a woman for a reason to live? Putting way to much power in their hands. I don't call that liberation, I call it delusion.
    'free from all power of persuasion',I've heard a saying that sounded similar 'a fool never changes his mind'.
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    C:


    Ironic that you use Martin Luther King's speech in your post. You see women as many white people once saw black people. You think of them as not human. You allow yourself to treat them with inequality. Fitting isn't it that such an iconic figure you chose to quote would tell you this? Perhaps this is another block in your spiritual journey, one you must get past. But I leave that for you to decide. Women are not my enemy. Women are human. I am human. We are the same. That girl who I thought crushed my soul one year ago? I made it my personal mission to help her realize her liberation to, to whatever end that entails. That is how I express my gratitude.
    Think carefully about what you've read here. Are you allowing yourself to be a slave to pride, lust, and envy? Are you truly liberated just because you have discovered this power along the way? Is this the way of your life, to be motivated strictly by personal pleasure? That is the message you are sending out right now. If it be true to yourself, then more power to you. But I sense a lot of turmoil behind your words. Am I wrong?


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    H:Free at last? True liberation? Sexslaves being free at last, I really don't see the irony.
    The white people were in power, if I say most men are sexslaves, what do you think that implies?
    I never said I didn't see women as human. I definitely don't see them as men though and one need only look thru history and just look into which roles the male and the female took on to see why it isn't strange that they've developed differently. It's true I see males as the better sex, just like I see humans as being superior to birds. You might say, but birds can fly much better. Let's just say of the things I value and that have led to progress, ALL manmade.
    It's not a bias,it's a fact!
    But yes, obviously MLK didn't talk about man's liberation, after all he was too much of a sexslave, so what about paraphrasing don't you understand?
    But yes it's a very known speech engraved in collective consciousness, so the next time while having a Super O, hear the words of this great orator resonating in your ears: Free at last, free at last, thank Godallmighty we're free at last :)
  • Of course it's conditioning. And if your views in the male liberation movement were to gain enough backing and become a part of some people's life since birth, that too would be conditioning. Everything can be labeled. I like your out of the box thinking, it's a good quality of an open mind willing to look into new nontraditional ideas - probably part of the reason you made it here. The world needs people like you, people who make us question ourselves and our motives. I did an emotional inventory just now, I do feel a pulling toward women. Hah, I gotta be honest, it weighs heavily on my mind. I feel this deep longing inside for the right woman to take this journey with me. It's that same kinda force that drove me everywhere in life. The pull of the moment, the pull of life. The willingness to not limit myself to any one philosophy, to not be defined.

    If liberation by your definition means having women outside of my life, then I will accept not being liberated. I don't agree with the label of sex slave, because if you are not enjoying yourself with women, I would put forward that you may not understand the concept of love, of being equal, of giving, of receiving, of accepting fault and willing to be imperfect with another. I'll accept the title of village idiot when I find my soul mate, and at the same time award myself with the title of the happiest man alive.
  • HelixerHelixer
    Posts: 566


    Of course it's conditioning. And if your views in the male liberation movement were to gain enough backing and become a part of some people's life since birth, that too would be conditioning


    Male liberation is about choise, selfempowerment, I don't see this as conditioning.
    What constitutes conditioning IMO is like advertising,making people believe they need something outside of themselves to be happy, fulffilled, etc creating dependencies.
    I don't understand why it would be conditioning if men reaching puberty were informed about their female side and prostatemassage, just like I don't see it as conditioning that women reaching puberty are informed about anti-conception.
    Furthermore, there is a shadowside to the conditioning I'm talking about, the creating of myths like 'great art is inspired by a women('s love), or that men who get lots of p. are superior and men that don't are inferior, I can go on, but I think every man knows what I'm talking about.
    So if men were properly informed and free of this negative conditioning and still choose a woman, that would be great!

    As I was explaining how religion had created the artificial harmony protecting the male and feminism has liberated females from this bondage helped by anti-conception, now it's time for males to be liberated. If feminists and liberated males could despite this find common ground I couldn't be happier, let's say I'm unhappy with the status quo. Perhaps in the US where religion is still a strong, dominant force, it's not so much of an issue (yet). But still sexslaves abound and the US is world's most materialistic society, a country that uses up a far out of proportion level of the earth's resources(don't your women just love to shop?)

    Again, it's about choise, after all I might be wrong in my assessment that women and men are outside of the sex&sexrelated issues incompatible.
    But how are we going to know if people are left in the dark? We're basically like the the Hitler Jugend that needed years of 'reprogramming' to undo the conditioning. Just like some Aneros users need years of practice to even become prostate aware and some not even that and have to resort to cannabis to properly re-wire. Imagine if you had been made aware that you were both male as female, you never would have needed any re-wiring, you'd probably even prefer the female orgasm to the male one. Now that's a change I can believe in!
  • HelixerHelixer
    Posts: 566
    Women want to have their cake and eat it, calling for equality when all they really want is diminishment of male's traditional power but at the same time flooding the male's vision with sexual content. So why is this, what feminists call women's exploitation, retaining or probably more appropriately expanding female power?

    To illustrate, of all animals the bonobo is closest to the human, they are however much more sexual than humans. And as I stated before, females have sexual power(that's why religion introduced things like chastity and burkas). Now guess what? Female bonobos are in charge!!!
    This is nothing but logical to me coz male(the better sex) get p-fied by females as i've already exhaustively explained in the male lib. thread.
    It's not as women degradingly claim because men only think about one thing, but men are programmed on a baser level to react to the sexual, as females are well aware of.
    Thus the question you should be asking yourself is:"are you a human or are you a sexslave like a male-bonobo?"
    I believe providence has given human beings the mental capacity to overcome their natural limits and have an inherent drive to perfect themselves. Hence,like I don't believe as religions claim, that God allready created humans perfect(biologically that is) I believe in taking charge of our limitations to perhaps one day approximate the divine. So yes, I believe in cloning and genetic manipulation and also that products like birthcontrol and the prostatemassage are instrumental in helping us evolve.
    Thus, eventhough I don't believe C., that without women men wouldn't be inspired to create, I do believe that without women men wouldn't develop avarice, this irrational greed and materialistic tendency that's destroying the planet.
    Because the female's realm is the petty,mundane, materialistic(I'm not saying this to put women down, but IMO a logical consequence of their evolutionary mode of survival, a bit like you can literally kill an animal by constantly feeding it, their instinct is to keep eating coz food=survival, so a woman is NEVER SATISFIED coz she needs more protection than a male does and she does that by hoarding)and she can use her sexual powers to p-fy the male into compromising his integrity.Instead of being content with relatively little and perfecting himself, he betrays his own nature, and as a good sexslave to the female, he works for her natural goals(leading occassionaly to avarice)
  • I see what you're saying Helixer, at least about having a choice after you know yourself. Women though have their own perceived demons to conquer. Personally, from the stuff I have read it is in fact men who have been partially responsible for their downfall. I mean, all you have to do is look at human history and see how poorly women are were treated in the past. Sure, they may have the perceived superior end of the stick now, but that was not always so. They have indeed fallen away from their traditional role, but change shouldn't be feared. We should embrace this change, and continue to evolve into new roles suitable for both male and females.

    The Aneros is a huge step in that realization, the need to be freed from a dependency of someone for sexual fulfillment. Because it is only when men are free from such influences that we can reconnect with our intuition and use that to help others reach their own levels of personal liberation. It is true that collectively, it appears that women are in fact taking advantage of men. Realize of course, that they will say the exact opposite about us and believe it to be true. And they are right, and you are right. We each take advantage of the other sex in some way at some point in our life. Rather than point fingers however, I find it much more beneficial to come up with solutions for both sexes. The ultimate solution is simply knowing yourself, knowing what you want out of life, and not being controlled by the whims of your parents, of society, of your mate, or of your friends.

    I think we're speaking the same language here Helixer, and I know where it is you are coming from. I think it's important for guys to hear what you have to say, because it's another one of those things they have to ask about themselves, to challenge themselves and come to the realization as to whether or not it is important to them as individuals. This is a cause I also fight for, and the only cause I fight for. I'm not into politics or religious debates, but rather, just the fight for people to understand themselves at their deepest level. People though, men and women. I feel both are deserving because we have each shouldered our perceived demons (of our own creation).
  • HelixerHelixer
    Posts: 566
    I think it comes down to one fundamental point of contention then. You believe the emotional dependancy is independant from the sexual whereas I believe the sexual translates itself into the emotional. We rationalize our sexual needs into emotional concepts, like 'love' and 'intimacy'. I know there's a purer kind of love but this kind of love I can hardly perceive in quid pro quo relationship between a man and a woman.

    Now the interesting thing will be to see how this develops. As I mentioned when talking about the Hitler Jugend, it's very hard to escape the programming society burdens you with. It took those brainwashed youths years to reprogramme their thinking, so how hard, if not impossible will it be for the middle aged and the elderly to change their thinking even if they have been biologically 're-wired'?
    When boys going thru puberty are informed about their two modes of sexual expression then we can truely say there is a choise. I know it's hard for me and perhaps even harder for you as we've had years of indoctrination. But THAT will be the true testcase(not the numerous partnered Aneros users on this site)
    What kind of sexuality will develop from this?
    What kind of male-female relationships will develop from this(if any at all)?

    I don't believe we're the 'finished product', as species we're still developing, and it's almost like a new gadget that has hidden functions you discover the handier you get. So too the human species will find hidden features externally as well as internally just waiting to be discovered or put into to use the more we develop.
    I'm certainly grateful to Aneros for giving humanity the tools to progress to the next level of consciousness
  • HelixerHelixer
    Posts: 566
    Spiritualists throughout history have been accused of 'misogeny'. As I've tried to explain it's not about hating women but recognizing different evolutionary natures. This is why the clergy were celibate. Once p-fied to the women's realm, it's hard to still strive for lofty ideals and to stay focussed on one true(spirtitual)nature. Once p-fied , you'll be bound to trivialities and mundane life and the focus will turn to the limited, materialistic, temporary stuff.This is why the clergy vowed for celibacy coz they understood females to be closer to the animal spirit and they understood men had a choise between their animal nature and their divine nature.

    Another great figure accused of misogeny was the great Buddha himself, Siddharta Gautama, who achieved enlightenment yet curiously, still felt the need to educate others how to achieve it. He preached non-attachment. His antagonists obviously reasoned as follows: "Where do women and making babies fit in if this guy preaches non-attachment? After all what more than anything bounds a man to earthly attachments?"

    And that's true:
    -goods and status to impress the woman
    -greed and desiring more to provide for her and her babies
    -placing women above God, becoming attached to the materialistic.

    Buddha's conclusion was that attachment was the source of all suffering and non-attachment would lead to enlightenment

    PS: just in case you think I'm a Buddhist, although I agree with a lot, I'm not, besides Buddhist music really sux!