Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Sign In with Google

In this Discussion

When Will We Males Ever Learn...?
  • artformartform
    Posts: 1,488
    All in All...

    We all seem to agree that this community and the frank, open, trusting, conversations in the threads, posts and chats we all enjoy and learn so much from are a mostly new and yet now essential part of our lives as healthier more complete males. We have also chatted extensively about how to take the best of this experience, new knowledge and spirit fully public – to the benefit we all believe of all males and their partners, and therefore of society as a whole.

    And yet the Rolling Poison of the Playgrounds (bullying to extremes of young males just growing into their sexuality whatever orientation that may sort out to be) continues its horrible toll: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/30/nyregion/30suicide.html?_r=1&partner=rss&emc=rss

    How can we individually and perhaps through further developing the Super-O Society, and perhaps with AnerosHIH, start taking this wonderful story of the much fuller, more complete male being, forward in public openly with courage and love and literally help to save lives?

    artform
  • VoyagerVoyager
    Posts: 200
    Unfortunately the world is much more dangerous place now.
    The Internet and sites like Twitter and Facebook have made it so.

    When I was a lad there were no digital cameras, video, mobile phones and so on.
    You could go out, have a skinfull, make a fool of yourself.
    People took the piss for a few days then it was forgotten.
    We all did it.
    Now a moment of indiscretion lasts a lifetime.
    You do something now and it is all over the ether.
    Bluetooth and the net.

    The net is a great thing in some ways but it can be a monster.

    I am thankful that I am not a young person now.
    Social networking makes life hell for some.
    My heart goes out to those caught up in its grip.
    Thats my 1d worth.
  • thhn
    Posts: 425
    I agree with you voyager that I as well am happy to grow up when I did - born in '55
    what a great era to grow up in - enough technology but not too much
    now it's all just out there - nothing is held back. playboy was the hot magazine then and drugs were unheard of.
    I can remember to this day the first time I saw a photo of a nude woman that actually showed pubic hair and I was 18 before I saw my first x rated super 8 movie.
    the internet sure is a double edged sword
  • Love_isLove_is
    Posts: 1,672
    Hello Artform, :)

    I was unable to read the article, since I don't fancy having to register an account to read a bit of news. But I can imagine it was about something terrible some kids did to another kid who was somewhat different than the others. There are many ways to look at this. To me, this stuff lies with the parents and teachers teaching tolerance and understanding for differences in people, and non-violent solutions to problems. Unless you have children that you can directly influence, whether yours, or a classroom. Then in my mind the best you can do is demonstrate these ways of being and hope that your goodness in action rubs off on other people who observe you. And by demonstrating kind and compassionate behavior, we all contribute to creating a better world. I know it sounds hokey. But we can't make a better world by just complaining about it. Practice and demonstrate loving social values, and the people around you will pick up on it. And thus you begin one of many waves to help change the world for the better.

    Love_is
  • rookrook
    Posts: 1,604
    Was born as 8mm (not Super8 was just moving onto the scene. Kodachrome would soon follow.

    We gave you the transistor, a pathway to a plethora of solid state devices and the communication theory for you to construct digital networks.

    We failed to provide a means to bring ethics into your daily transactions and left it for colleges to teach Ethics 101. So, my generation and all that followed was unable to relate the theories of Ethics to what they had learned as children. Instead we allowed ethics to be in the hands of the lawyers so that after you took any action you could say, "I asked my lawyer and he/she said I did nothing wrong."

    The regrettable part is that today's web-surfer, Fb and Twitter fan is more interested in what's hot, what's viral and what the trend numbers are on the post. Not the content, its logic, its honesty and whether it's ethical and fair to all.

    Sorry guys we screwed up. : :eek ::eek::eek:
  • HelixerHelixer
    Posts: 566
    I think it was Elanor Roosevelt who saideth: "It takes the consent of both involved for one to make the other feel inferior". The question I guess for the gay community is how they deal with it. Preferably in a non-showy, in your face or over the top kind of way. So you accept your sexuality? great, please don't involve others with the details.

    -Helixer
  • artformartform
    Posts: 1,488
    Hi Ho Helixer.

    The entire problem Helixer is the reverse of what you state here. Homophobic intruders and bullies tormenting and making a public display of a private personal act. Hideous intimidation and invasion of privacy by deliberate illegal acts. It has gone on for centuries regardless of the technologies of the day. Your total reversal of the facts of this incident is very puzzling and disturbing.

    Further our culture tolerates high pressured hyper-marketing based on media-screaming sexuality everywhere. Equal rights and equal access would suggest gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgendered are significantly still under-represented even if the public representation is growing somewhat. Perhaps the best solution is to greatly reduce gross use of publicly displayed advertising sex to sell tons of useless planet destroying trinkets no one really needs.

    all the best healthy sexuality in all its panorama all

    artform
  • HelixerHelixer
    Posts: 566
    I'm stating it from my pespective, as I stated in the thread that got deleted coz it was too inappropriate for the Aneros staff, what people do behind closed doors is their own business.
    I skimmed the article you put up, and it seems like someone committed suicide coz someone had made his homosexuality public, thus I conclude he must have been ashamed of his own sexuality. And sure the bigotted people frown on it like they frown on anything that doesn't fit in their nice little family picture. Still, to be so ashamed that your sexuality is being 'exposed' that you commit suicide. It takes two, for one to feel this way. What I'm saying is, surely there must be a happy medium between suicidally ashamed of your sexuality and flaunting it like on gay pride or whatever
  • artformartform
    Posts: 1,488
    I understand your position and that of Eleanor Roosevelt in her day. However she contradicts your position.

    She says takes the consent of the bullied to acknowledge the label of "inferior". In the Civil Rights Movement, it took Black Pride to reject inferior status and march resolutely and peacefully, which was still seen by the bigoted side as disruptive and "not knowing their place". Yet you want LGBTs to quietly carry on without full and open respect and the same freedom of expression as you claim for yourself. "Moderate yourself and I can tolerate and ignore you." "Be faceless and therefore be inferior to me." That's what it seems you are asking. I do not think that is a decent civil respect for their human rights and civil rights. It looks very much like an unscientific desire to carry on the old unfounded prejudice literally with blindness to these people. "I don't want to know. Be invisible to me. Hide and be inferior."

    No; Eleanor encourages the bold public statements of worth and self-assurance and Pride! Those public actions seeking open full equal engagement ARE the essential affirmative public rejections of "others" efforts to label their group "inferior"! Eleanor would likely today be marching with them, just as Queen Elizabeth II did at the Toronto Gay Pride Parade wearing her rainbow feathered hat!

    They must reject the uncaring demanded silence and invisibility, which can only perpetuate "inferiority". You too say they must reject any sense of being inferior.

    You also avoided my facts and argument. They still stand. Further, anthropology and other sciences have clearly established that most males go through some searching and uncertainties as they go through pre-puberty, puberty itself, and the initial post puberty years. That is when this kind of harassment, bullying and intimidation is most damaging and dangerous. Coming into full recognition of one's sexual orientation, when that is still not universally accepted, can be a traumatic time of high uncertainty and anxiety. It is not a time of simple absolutes as you seem to suggest.

    As you know, I have enjoyed many of your previous posts and engaged in you threads in dialogues with you. I am concerned with the aggressive assertive brittleness that seems to be replacing your earlier questioning enthusiastic probes.

    Hope all is well and goes well with you.

    artform
  • HelixerHelixer
    Posts: 566
    Correct me if I was wrong, I thought this was about a homosexual that commited suicide because his homosexuality was made public. This can only mean that he felt ashamed of his own sexuality, and for this to happen there have to be 2 parties involved.If he didn't mind his own sexuality he wouldn't have done it.

    And if it wasn't clear from the above I'm all for accepting ones sexuality. But surely most heterosexuals do what they do in private as well,It's not that I find homosexuality inferior, I just find the explicit displays of it like in Gay Pride parades revolting, if anything this in your face gayness is what gives homosexuals a bad name. And FYI I don't like seeing heterosexuals displaying their affection for each other in my face either.
    If you admit that sexuality should be a private matter you seem to be contradicting yourself when you say this type of sexuality should be paraded in the open.
    Coz either way, it's not going to make any 'converts', and I doubt if it will make the ones that are ashamed of their sexuality any less ashamed by parading freak shows
  • rookrook
    Posts: 1,604
    [QUOTE=Helixer;91518]Correct me if I was wrong, I thought this was about a homosexual that commited suicide because his homosexuality was made public.

    No issue with that at all but, don't overlook murder.

    [QUOTE=Helixer;91518]This can only mean that he felt ashamed of his own sexuality, and for this to happen there have to be 2 parties involved. If he didn't mind his own sexuality he wouldn't have done it.

    Can't quite buy into that word, "only." This is where the wheels fall off the wagon. While 'shame' may have been present at some earlier time or times, this was more likely the result of a feeling of 'worthlessness.' It doesn't take "two to tango" in this game. Strictly a "one man show."

    //*****************************************************************************************************//
    No sure thing about what caused this but.... Hold the party guys !

    90% shot that we're discussing suicide resulting from a major shift in an underlying mood disorder. Then too, there's a chance that the typed message was fake and the death was really a homicide by a homophobe. If you want to run your imagination all over the map, consider murder by the gay partner in retaliation for the victim providing an "unsafe environment." (improbable but something for the cops to rule out.) Etc.

    Allow me an attempt to clarify what isn't said in this thread. First, please recognize that facts and history are in, "short supply." Except that the victim is dead, was well educated, artistic and may have had previous sexual experience, we don't know much.

    Here however are a couple of safe assumptions (the coin used to purchase conclusions when we lack facts.)

    1. Bi-polar assumption: Assume that the act of suicide occurred during a period of severe cognitive distortion, probably accompanied by a severly depressed mood or during a massive down spike from bi-polar disorder. (Bi-polar isn't unusual in highly artistic gay males in this age range.)

    I'd guess this gent was depressed well in advance of the sexual encounter and probably in a hypo-manic or manic-phase during the sexual encounter, disclosure and aftermath. // end assumption #1 //

    Visit -- Palm Springs Gay Men's Health | Mens Personal Crisis | Gay Mens Sexual Health | Information and Educational Materials -- . Read the section on Bi-polar disorder & check the chart. Understand that in bi-polar's suicide is usually planned during the depressed phases when there's not enough physical and mental energy to carry it out. It's when the potential victim cycles to mania or hypo-mania that the mental energy and clear focus is available to carry out the act of suicide.

    2. Clinical Depression assumption: The severely depressed victim lives only in his own reality. And, that reality is a sense of worthlessness. He/she is easily skewed congitively. He sees no possible solution to the situation and seeks to take the only path that can assure emotional peace and release from the pain of the depression, and whatever triggered it (embarassment ? disclosure/outing to loved ones ? outing of a partner to the act that had been assured of anonymity ?) //end assumption #2 //

    Words that, a depressed person, "be rational," "establish parity with worth of others" (Helixer's suggestion), "snap out of it," "lift themselves up by the bootstraps," or "you have it better than most guys," are not helpful. In most cases such words will increase the feeling of inferiority. In turn, those 'put downs' increase the sense of depression, increase the cognitive skew and move the victim closer to contemplation of suicide. Even a sarcastic attempt at humor can trigger a mental re-run of the situation (shame?) that inspired the sense of inferiority and intensify renewed feelings of inferiority, abnormality, guilt and depression.

    If anyone has difficulty appreciating the above or anyone wants to check the validity of the assumptions, look for good reads on the or websites. And, you might Google for There's plenty to read.

    Suggest that once everyone has a handle on the topic, continue the party. 2cw (well maybe only 1cw)

    Late note guys: The major US search engines, when asked for dbsa, are now pointing to Development Bank of South Africa instead of Depression BiPolar Support Alliance. Instead, ask for DBSAlliance.org.
  • HelixerHelixer
    Posts: 566
    And just to add to the discussion. Do you think gays should have special priveledges, that they can display their sexuality in an obscene and overly overt manner, just to show their proud to be gay? Do you really think someone who had problems with his sexuality that those feelings of shame and guilt would disappear by the sight of such a parade. It naturally attracks the ones who are most obscene and showy, do you think ppl that are ashamed because of their religion or culture they came from or even just their upbringing would feel more compelled by the sight of such a spectacle to 'come out of the closet'.

    To me it's all about homosexuals thinking they've got special rights and can do whatever they want to do just because they've now('after living in a strictly puritanical enviroment') finally come to grips with themselves and have 'come out of the closet'?
    So does that mean if I had been that somebody who's been keeping it in all these years can suddenly explode and start killing people?

    An interesting similarity comes to mind, like this other socalled repressed group of individuals, that feel they have special rights for their perennial suffering. Open displays of how more important their suffering should be than everybody elses. And the things they feel entitled to because of it.

    What always gets me is when gays display extreme disgust at things like pedophilia or necrofilia, like they have to overcompensate. "No, they'll say. with us it's between 2 consenting adults. They're just sick in the head and need counseling"
    I agree sex should be between consenting sexually mature adults. But like with rape, even if she is not consenting who's to stop her enjoying it as you fuck her hard all night!?
    But more so than consenting is of course the sexually mature adult part(which differs per individual not per age).

    Even if this is true, I'd be all for giving pedosexuals all the (digitally made) childporn they can get their hands on. Perhaps unrelated to this, in Japan where violent sexual manga exist there's hardly any rape. This makes more sense to me than giving them counseling so that they can overcome their sexuality.
    I like to fuck with women, but say I ccan't get my hands on one thru the 'appropriate'channels does that mean I'd have to rape her?
    Would it be ok for me then to get porno so I can live out my fantasies or would that only make me want to rape someone? or do different rules apply to different sexualities?
    Give every sexuality all it wants, what he or she does with themselves is completely a private affair.
    It's like nobody can defend it because they're scared they will be associated with this greatest of parias. I mean someone could ruin someone's life by even giving the appearance that they were involved with pedophilia.
    Thankfully I'm not a pedophile, but still I feel strongly than everyone should be able to have a right to their private sexuality. Coz in the privacy, sexuality can become very fluid indeed.
  • VoyagerVoyager
    Posts: 200
    It takes a great deal of courage / moral fiber to walk out into the street and say "I am different"

    "How so" is the question the world asks.

    You could reply in many ways.
    I am Gay.
    I want to have a sex change.
    I stick bits of plastic up my bum.
    I want to be tied up and slapped with a wet fish.

    That takes courage.
  • HelixerHelixer
    Posts: 566
    Streaking takes courage, doesn't mean they don't get arrested for it. Masturbating in public takes courage....in fact there are a lot of illegal things that take courage, so are you saying because it takes courage we should allow it?

    I'm not sure what you are trying to say here? Do you actually believe that it takes courage for those extremely dressed gayparaders to do what they do?For us it may, but as with the above mentioned streaker this is more like enjoying their exhibitionism.
  • ndro
    Posts: 20
    I sincerely hope that helixer's view is one of those dying ones.

    Here we have young people who are taking their own lives because they are made to feel like second class people, yet people like helixer who view gay people as exactly that.

    We don't ask for special privileges sir. Only equal rights.
  • HelixerHelixer
    Posts: 566

    Here we have young people who are taking their own lives because they are made to feel like second class people, yet people like helixer who view gay people as exactly that.

    We don't ask for special privileges sir. Only equal rights

    .

    Perhaps when you make your mendacious claims in the future you can add quotations?
  • HelixerHelixer
    Posts: 566
    It's a funny thing this 'Gay Pride' or similarly 'White Pride'. It always puzzles me how someone can be proud about something that they've done absolutely nothing to achieve. I'm not talking about accepting who one is, but being proud for how you were born, by sheer chance....

    Ppl in this thread have been trying to smear me, trying to make out that I am against homosexuals, but when I ask them to quote me they remain conspicuously silent.

    In fact I'm ultra tolerant for ALL sexualities(homo-/heterosexuals, pedophiles etc)it's someting you're born with that you have no control over. If white people walk in a parade showing their pride for being white, they'd be referred to as 'dumbasses' or 'neo-nazi biggots', but when homosexuals go in parade exhibitionistly displaying their sexuality ad nauseam it's ok based on the false assumption that it's going to urge the shy or repressed homosexuals to come out the closet. Above I've already extensively covered why this is a false assumption.

    The question remains: special priveledges why?

    It's like how women always twist things. Like this researche that was conducted showing that men are more likely to cheat on their wife if she earns more, conclusion: men feel threatened by a woman's 'superiority'.
    Conversely (probably the same feminist authors) would write: Men cheat for no apparent reason, woman cheat when they're being neglected. Like when the husband is making a career, making long hours to make more money
    Isn't this the same thing? somehow men bear the brunt in both instances
  • BusterBuster
    Posts: 953
    [QUOTE=Helixer;91677]In fact I'm ultra tolerant for ALL sexualities(homo-/heterosexuals, pedophiles etc)it's someting you're born with that you have no control over.

    So you have decided to put pedophiles in the same category here? Really Helixer?? How about rapists? How is that for quoting you!
  • HelixerHelixer
    Posts: 566


    So you have decided to put pedophiles in the same category here? Really Helixer?? How about rapists? How is that for quoting you!



    Yes, like homosexuality you're born with it. People used to think homosexuals were sick in the head as well.

    To properly quote myself:



    I'd be all for giving pedosexuals all the (digitally made) childporn they can get their hands on. Perhaps unrelated to this, in Japan where violent sexual manga exist there's hardly any rape. This makes more sense to me than giving them counseling so that they can overcome their sexuality.
    I like to fuck with women, but say I ccan't get my hands on one thru the 'appropriate'channels does that mean I'd have to rape her?
    Would it be ok for me then to get porno so I can live out my fantasies or would that only make me want to rape someone? or do different rules apply to different sexualities?
    Give every sexuality all it wants, what he or she does with themselves is completely a private affair.