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A More Realistic Attitude.
  • rumelrumel
    Posts: 2,253
    (Note : Underlined Text is a Hyper-Link)
    Guys,
    We often comment on this Forum on the narrow minded thinking of religious institutions regarding sexual practices.
    There was a bit of good news in my local paper today about a pastor who is actually promoting more sex. Maybe the Churches of this world are finally gaining some enlightenment regarding their own restrictive dogma.

    What I found most intriguing was this line in their lead paragraph "Regardless of if you are single or married, we all need to understand intimacy and sex and how they impact our relationships." That's a distant viewpoint from the fundamentalists insistence for abstinence.

    Now, if we could just get the fundamentalists to see Aneros use as a safe sex alternative, everybody would be better off. Hey, at least it is another small step in the direction of changing social mores to a more enlightened attitude. Am I being over optimistic in thinking that Tantric and Taoist principles (which pre-date Christianity) may once again demonstrate their value in spiritual development?
  • Much of the teaching in the churches regarding sex is not Biblical at all but actually comes from gnostic heresies that crept into the early church. The gnostics believed that while God created the soul, Satan created the body, and hence all bodily pleasure was evil. These heresies are still in the churches today and are firmly embedded in our society. What an insult to God!

    Going through puberty should be a wonderful and awesome experience for boys and girls as they discover how fearfully and wonderfully made we are. But the church robbed me of the joy of becoming a man and instead filled me with anguish and guilt that I carried for years.

    There is an excellent website, www.boysunderattack.com that I recommend to all preteen and teenage boys and parents.

    As for sexual relations, I think the ancient Taoists had a much better appreciation of the meaning of "they shall become one" (Genesis 2:24) than most people today ever achieve. Sex is the most awesome thing God created for men and women to enjoy. And it is the one thing that our society is so totally messed up about.
  • I was raised in a conservative chritstian family and I remember the first time masturbating.

    It was so amazing! Right when I came, however, a wave of guilt hit me and I thought, "God saw me!" and got cleaned up as quick as I could and was scared that I might not be able to be forgiven for what I had just done. :?

    The Multi Orgasmic Man says that boys learning to masturbate don't want to be caught so they race to the finish every time, they also have guilt that they attach to it and so we're creating premature ejaculators. I have struggled with PE and when I read that it made so much sense!
  • Love_isLove_is
    Posts: 1,672
    Wow Rumel!!!

    Your right, that is a very different way for an organized religion to approach the sex topic as compared to the usual. What a beautiful change from the religious norm. :D

    Growing up, I never had a religion that place shame and guilt on anything sexual. My parents did that for me. But they got it from a strict catholic upbringing. As I understand it, more from the priests and nuns than their parents. These kind of things can be generational. Meaning your parents "values"(for lack of a better word), are sub-consciously imprinted upon you as you grow up.

    Anyways...
    Parting thoughts.

    If God didn't want us to masturbate, it would not have made our arms long enough to do so. :D

    Love_is
  • BusterBuster
    Posts: 953
    Can you imagine if we could figure out how to harness all of our sexual energy as an alternative energy source. You could probably keep the lights on. All kidding aside, I don't have a lot to compare it to but I know that there have been others that have first hand experience of how sex is handled in other countries. By most accounts it seems that for a country and progressive as we are in the USA, we are prudish when it comes to sex.

    I was lucky and was never told that masturbation was a sin. Here is to all the sinners out there! The ability that we are witnessing here on this site of guys being able to have these intense orgasms for such extended period of times in simply amazing to me. Let's face it guys, it changes you. It changes you in such positive ways. How you look at things differently.

    Now, look at how hard it is for most of us to even tell those closest to us how great it is. There is a change on the horizon and I feel optimistic about it.
  • Recently, on the NPR program Fresh Air, hosted by Terry Gross, one of her guests was a pastor of a congregation that asked its members to have sex every day for ten days and to keep a journal of their experiences. The motivation behind the program was that certain aspects of a relationship need to be addressed BEFORE you get into the bedroom. The intended purpose of the exercise was to get the members to explore their relationship building skills. Interesting to note that single members of the church were asked to eat chocolate or enjoy some other self-indulgent activity. I don't believe masturbation was ever mentioned...

    Now, my question is, "How do we get other churches to participate in this program and, if we can get them to stagger the dates, how do we transfer our memberships fast enough to keep up?" Sounds like a little heaven on earth, to me...

    On the flip side, having gone through the infertility experience, mandatory sex does lose its luster.
  • Ah...sex and religion. What two topics elicit such an enthusiastic discussion? By reading the posts, although ostensibly they are about "organized religion" in general, I think it's safe to assume that most of the reflections refer specifically to Christianity or the practitioners of Christianity in it's many forms. Therefore, I will address my post to reflections on the Christian view of sexuality.

    This is a lengthy post, as it reflects two issues about which I care deeply...sex and spirituality. Let me first say, I have the highest regard for the kind and welcoming attitude of users of this forum. I have benefitted greatly from reading other's struggles and learnings with the Aneros. And, I appreciate the respectful, mature tone of almost every post. We are all trying to learn and enjoy more in life.

    What I write below is my view and I admit from the start, could be wrong about everything I say. I think what I believe is sound and logical and reasonable and there is very good evidence to accept that the things I write below are an accurate reflection of what the Bible teaches and what is a correct view of how things really are. But, I could be wrong. It's with this disclaimer that I respectfully submit some thoughts for your consideration. In addition, in what I write, I intend absolutely no disrespect or judgmental attitude or to come across in any way as self-righteous.

    It's true that sex has been demonized in certain Christian churches and circles and at certain times throughout Christian history. The primary reasons for this have more to do with the individual's personal feeling and experiences with respect to sexuality and not what the Bible specifies. For example, Augustine of Hippo, arguably one of the most powerful and influential theologians in Christian history was by his own admission extremely sexually promiscuous in his early years. It's easy to see how he carried his own sense of unresolved guilt and shame about his previous behavior into his later harsh and unbiblical negative pronouncements regarding sexuality. It's almost cliche but the pastor or Christian who constantly rails about sexual sin is usually hiding something. "the lady doth protest too much, methinks" Hamlet (III, ii, 239). t

    It is true there has been perhaps an over-emphasis on all the "Thou shalt nots" in the Bible regarding sex and a woeful ignorance of all the "Thou shalls". This is changing. If one looks openly at the Scriptures, you will find a very earthy, natural approach to the whole human sexual experience. Clearly, there are sexual practices God directs His people to abstain from. Why is this? Well, if you can accept the idea that God is the designer and creator of all that is, that He is a he and not an it (in other words, God is a personal being, not a force) and that being a personal being, He is moral and just and holy then it becomes easier to accept His instructions regarding sexuality. He knows. He designed the vagina and penis and all the other parts that feel so good when touches and caressed and stroked and sucked and licked. The orgasm was His idea. Yea God!

    To me, the Bible does not seem to shy away from celebrating and inviting us to celebrate our sexuality as one of the very good things God gives us in life to enjoy. One must keep in mind that although orthodox Christians believe the Scriptures are inspired by God, they were also written by people in an ancient, agricultural-based culture. Therefore, the language the Bible uses when discussing sexuality is rather straight forward at times, in some cases shockingly explicit (for some) and in other cases, poetic and metaphorical.

    For example, Proverbs 5 (Hebrew Bible/Christian Old Testament) which starts out as a warning from a father to a son against using prostitutes and committing adultery to satisfy his sexual desires goes on to encourage his son to be exhilarated ALWAYS with the love of the wife of his youth. Clearly, from the context, it's sexual love the father is talking about. This is after He tells the young man that his wife's breasts satisfy him... "at ALL times". By interpretation and application, we can apply this passage of instructions from a father to a son as God instructing us. "Always" and "at all times" sounds to me like God expects us to be getting it on with our wives quite frequently. Again, I say, "Yea God"!

    Early in this same passage, we read: "Drink water from your own cistern, and fresh water from your own well. Should your springs be dispersed abroad, streams of water in the streets? Let them be yours alone and not for strangers with you. Let your fountain be blessed...Proverbs 5:15-18a. As this passage is addressed to men, I take "fountain" and "streams" as a clear metaphor for ejaculation. Men have steams that spurt forth. God is not shy or embarrassed by this.

    The Song of Solomon is one of the most erotic writings of ancient times. In some places the two lovers refer to how much they love the other's body parts and how their scents are thrilling and many believe some of the versus refer poetically to oral sex.

    In the Old Testament book of Ezekiel, God rebukes Israel for it's unfaithfulness to Him in worshipping the pagan gods of the surrounding nations with fairly racy language: ..."she (you, Israel) lusted after their paramours, whose penis is like that of a donkey and whose ejaculate is like that of a horse". In other words, you went after them because you thought they had a big cock and gushers of cum!

    Finally, the Apostle Paul, who's often portrayed by revisionists as a prude or sexually repressed instructs married couples in the Corinthian church, who were apparently withholding sex from their partners for whatever reason says : "Let the husband fulfill his duty to his wife and likewise also the wife to her husband. The wife does not have authority over her own body but the husband does; and likewise also the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. Stop depriving one another except by mutual agreement for a short time. And, then come back together, so that you may not be tempted" I Cor 7:3-5a.

    What I'm trying to establish is that the Bible and Christianity as it properly follows the teachings of Scriptures should embrace sexuality for all that God intended. Does God ask us to abstain from certain sexual practices? Yes, from and external and internal aspect.

    From an external standpoint, without getting into lengthy descriptions or debates on what kind of sex God does and doesn't approve of, suffice it to say He mainly asks for people to abstain from sex with another person until they are willing to commit to a life-long, monogamous relationship with a member of the opposite sex. Does this include masturbation? No. The Bible nowhere mentions masturbation. Nowhere. Those who make such a case have no basis for it.

    God is concerned not just about what we do externally but also how we live internally...what our thoughts and fantasies are. This is why Jesus, in the sermon on the mount, extended the commandment about not committing adultery to lust. He said that if we look on a person and our motivation in doing so was to feed our sexual imagination we were committing adultery already. This is why I believe a Christian is expected to abstain from fantasy and pornography.

    Can you masturbate without fantasy or pornography? Yes. If you just focus on the good feelings, I believe this is possible and, it's obviously preferable to getting involved sexually with a person you are not married to.

    For the married couple, God's design is do it as much as you want, whatever is pleasing to each other. I'm not talking about the missionary position. I'm taking about oral sex, anal stimulation, mutual masturbation, personal porno, handcuffs...whatever the two of you enjoy. The New Testament book of Hebrews says this: Let marriage be held in honor among all and let the marriage bed be undefiled; for fornicators and adulterers God will judge (Hebrews 13:4). The word translated "marriage bed" comes from the Greek word koitee, from which we get our word coitus.

    So, the Christian view of sex should be one of unashamed celebration and exhilaration within the framework of a committed life-long relationship. It is a sacred, spiritual experience...the joining together of two into one and this serves in some way as representative of our union with God.

    A true biblical view of sex doesn't see the body as evil. It sees it as fallen along with the rest of our being and therefore needs to be managed with care. In the Christian view, we will always inhabit bodies. Jesus Himself, being incarnate God, completely shared the human experience, yet without partaking in our sinful nature. He had a penis. He still has a penis. He will always have a penis because when God raised Him from the dead, He raised Him in the same body He went into the grave with...a male body, complete with penis. God has chosen, in Jesus, to maintain this state for all eternity.

    The Christian teaching on the Resurrection is the same. I will go into the grave a man, with a penis, my wife, a woman with a vagina and we will be bodily raised from the dead, complete with sexual organs, on the Final Day. What will we do with our sex organs for all eternity? I have no idea. We know in the resurrection we don't maintain the same kind of marriage relationship as we did in this life. But, I believe whatever the function, it will be much, much better than any sexual pleasure or orgasm we can acheive in the here and now.

    I believe there's possibly an indication our bodes still retain their pleasure functions in the resurrection based on this: in the Gospel of John, it's recorded that when Jesus appeared to His disciples after the resurrection, in one instance, we met them while they were fishing, having made a little fire on the beach and when they came up to Him, He was grilling some fish. He ate with them. Now, He may have been doing this simply to indicate He was physically resurrected and not a phantom or spirit being. Yes, this is a body. But, I also think it's an indication that even though our bodies obtain new powers in this resurrected state, we still enjoy the pleasures and sensations of having a body.

    My wife and I thoroughly enjoy our time together, we explore, we experiment, we keep it fresh and after 25 years together, we still discover new ways to please one another. My wife LOVES seeing me writhe in ecstacy with the Aneros inserted while she stimulates my nipples and balls. She enjoys the Paradise. Our sex life has gone to yet another level.

    Bottom line:
    IF one stop for a minute and just think about the basic rational concept that if anything now exists, something has to have always existed or there would now be nothing...that nothing comes from nothing...that there has to be an initial cause for the universe (i.e not ascribing some causative power to "chance" which is really not anything other than a description for probability) and that this cause was a self-existent being, who alone possesses all the power of being, that this being is in fact a perfect fit with the being called God described in the Bible, who is good and just and holy and as the creator of all He has the right to impose certain rules and responsibilities on His creatures then one can accept His directions regarding sexuality, knowing that He designed it, it's a good thing, He knows how it works best and when we follow His basic instructions, we honor Him and live fulfilled sex lives.
  • Amen brother!

    I couldn't agree more.

    "I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
    Marvelous are Your works,
    And that my soul knows very well." (Psalm 139:14)
  • Badger
    Posts: 647
    Ditto, newguy8762!! Wow, that was a very insightful, thought-provoking post! I've known, believed and understood pretty much everything you wrote, but could have never coalesced it into one thought anywhere near as well as you have. I would have been working on a post like that for at least a week, and it would still come out as crap. You certainly have a gift.
  • Thanks for the kudos guys.

    One clarification on my paragraph on masturbation... when I said I do not believe there is any biblical basis for prohibiting masturbation I was specifically thinking of single men. I've told my sons masturbation is natural and normal and as long as they aren't using pornography or fantasy while they jack off and they are just focusing on the good feelings in their body, this is not a big deal to God. They should be grateful to their Creator for making their bodies capable of having such wonderful sensations.

    In fact, as I've posted before on this site, I've encouraged them to use masturbation as a tool to learn to delay orgasm (or at least ejaculation) as it will help them have a more satisfying sexual relationship with their future spouse if they can last a long, long time. This is the problem with parents just leaving kids to find out about sex on their own. They don't get good, accurate information and they get the idea it's dirty or wrong. When mom and dad talk with joy and unashamed openness about such things, it gives the kids a real sense of wonder at the whole thing.

    I refuse to let my children grow up in a home or church hearing sex is dirty or nasty. I believe it's my duty to actually help them with my sexual experience...good and bad...and knowledge to improve their and their future mates pleasure. We overheard one of our older kids tell one of our younger kids, who was grossed out about us talking about sex, "I'm glad mom and dad love sex. I hope when I'm their age my husband and I are still that excited about each other". Not that we're ancient, but you get the idea.

    My one clarification is in regards to married men and masturbation. I don't think there's any prohibition against married men masturbating either....so long as it isn't used as replacement for sex with your spouse...I Cor 7:5 "don't go on depriving one another". If a guy is taking matters into his own hands because his spouse is ill or her sex drive is not as high as his or there's a lot of travel between the couple and their together time is limited or he's a widow or a host other reasons like this, I think it's not a big deal. But, if we're using it to avoid our spouse because of unresolved anger or other issues and we're selfishly gratifying ourselves at the expense of our mates pleasure...then it's just that. Selfish.
  • BTW Old Tiger, the web site you recommended for boys looks awesome!
  • PhilSPhilS
    Posts: 32
    While I have about three years of graduate work beyond a doctorate in theology, I do not consider myself an authority. However, I will add one comment to what has been posted: The first commandment God gave Adam and Eve was to take care of the Garden of Eden. The second commandment given them, and all mankind, was to multiply. You will find this in the first chapters of Genesis. Sexuality is Godly and God made us male and female. He did not make us male and female and then say, "Now whatever you do, don't use your equipment." As the owner of a Helix and a Progasm I explore my sexuality free from guilt. I hope all of you do too.